Welcome back to Week 2 of the Oathbringer reread! Last week, we took our third look at the fateful night of the treaty-turned-assassination, from the perspective of the young Listener scout who started it all. This week, we return to Urithiru, where Dalinar is facing a host of problems ranging from personal to global importance—not least of which is how to get anyone to believe him.
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread. There’s really not much Cosmere connectivity this week, other than a few explanatory remarks in Cosmere Connections. But if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done, because there are references all over the book this week.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Dalinar
WHERE: Kholinar vision, Urithiru
WHEN: 1174.1.1.4
When we left our heroes at the end of Words of Radiance, they’d safely arrived in Urithiru following the Everstorm and the battle on the Shattered Plains. Dalinar had bonded the Stormfather and is a true Knight Radiant now, and Kaladin, Renarin, and Shallan were all outed as Knights Radiant as well. Shallan was still being somewhat secretive about the extent of her abilities. Szeth had been taken as an apprentice by Nalan and the Skybreakers after a miraculous revival, and Adolin had killed Torol Sadeas after having shoved poor Eshonai into a chasm.
Now, six days later, Dalinar retreats into one of his vision-dreams, seeking answers. Kholinar is reportedly being torn asunder by riots and the Queen has gone silent. The Everstorm approaches, cycling back around the continent, but the nations of the world don’t heed Dalinar’s warnings. Dalinar sees Odium’s Champion, and comes to the realization that he must unite the world faster than Odium can destroy it—to do so, he needs to find more Knights Radiant. Before he can begin to address any of the million problems presented, however, a scout arrives to alert them that Sadeas has been murdered.
Threshold of the Storm
Herald: All four positions show Chanarach, patron of Dustbringers, associated with the essence Spark, the role of Guard, and the divine attributes of Brave and Obedient. We certainly don’t see Chach herself in this chapter, so why is she here?
Alice: I have a couple of safe guesses and one hare-brained notion. Dalinar is in the position of Guard to humanity, at this point; he’s placed himself between the humans and Odium to defend them somehow. It takes courage, and is his best attempt at obedience to the command to “Unite them.” Those are the safe ones. The wild hare (it can hardly even be dignified with the term “theory”) is that the scars Dalinar sees on the walls of Kholinar, presumably caused by thunderclasts, could be a manifestation of the Voidbinding version of Dustbringers.
Lyn: Or just… big claws.
A: Dalinar mentions seeing creatures in his visions who could do this, and specifically describes the thunderclast. But whether they’re related to Dustbringers is unknown and a pretty dodgy guess.
Icon: The character icon is Dalinar’s “House Kholin” shield—the Tower and the Crown. It will show itself on all chapters where his POV is primary.
Title: The chapter title, Broken and Divided, comes from this statement by Navani:
“Dalinar, we’re half frozen up here, broken and divided. Our command structure is in disarray, and it—”
I’d like to point out here that the chapter titles almost always mean more than their specific context.
L: There are a few things this can be in reference to, which I like. First of all, the big obvious one. The nations of the world are Divided. But we can dig a little deeper here and note that the proto-Radiants we know of are also Divided, with the exceptions of Dalinar, Shallan and Renarin, who are all in Urithiru. Kaladin’s off to save his parents. Szeth is training to be a Skybreaker. Lift is probably eating. Jasnah’s traveling on her way back to Urithiru after her jaunt in Shadesmar. At this point in the story, their goals are divided, each aiming for a different goalpost. By the end, they’re United in Purpose, so it’s fitting that this is where we begin.
A: In an even more localized sense, the Alethi army is broken by the Battle of Narak, and divided between those who went with Dalinar and those who refused. The divisions between the princedoms are going to have a lot of petty impacts as we go.
I’m certain some will feel threatened by this record. Some few may feel liberated. Most will simply feel that it should not exist. —from Oathbringer, preface
A quick scan through the comments from the serialization (Chapters 1-3) indicates that several people guessed right off that it was Dalinar writing (or Navani writing for him), and one person suggested that Sunmaker had written it. The funny thing is, the people who guessed it was Dalinar mostly changed their minds later, IIRC.
Stories & Songs
“In my visions, I witnessed a stone monster that ripped itself free from the underlying rock.”
L: Th-th-th-thunderclast! The interesting thing I find about these is that they’re animated from spren “possessing” inanimate objects… sounds awful Awakening-y to me. Though they do only ever seem to possess the same substance—stone. I wonder if they CAN possess other things?
A: Well, that’s a terrifying thought. So far, we’ve only seen them animate unworked stone—ripping themselves out of the ground. It would be moderately awful if the spren could possess a chunk of a city wall, for example—ripping a hole in the wall as its genesis, and then tearing down everything around it without even having to move. My best guess, though, would be that worked stone sees itself as Wall, and would be much harder to redirect than the ground.
L: Kind of like Soulcasting, then. Unworked stone has no other sense of purpose.
A: I’d almost forgotten, but when we see them in the Avalanche, the thunderclasts are referred to by proper names—presumably the names of the specific spren who do this:
Among the waiting spirits were two larger masses of energy—souls so warped, so mangled, they didn’t seem singer at all. One crawled into the stone ground, somehow inhabiting it like a spren taking residence in a gemheart. The stone became its form.
So… it’s still possible that unworked stone is needed. Come to think of it… that doesn’t sound like Soulcasting. If there’s any parallel to Surgebinding at all, it might well be something belonging to Stonewards. Unless it’s Division after all, in the sense of dividing one chunk of rock from the rest of the ground… Okay, my head is spinning. Time to change the subject.
Let’s talk Champions!
“A golden light, brilliant yet terrible. Standing before it, a dark figure in black Shardplate. The figure had nine shadows, each spreading out in a different direction, and its eyes glowed a brilliant red.” “Those eyes frightened him more. He saw something terribly familiar in them.” “This was the enemy’s champion. And he was coming.”
There were lots of guesses from the preview chapters as to the identity of Odium’s champion, with Adolin being one of the top contenders. This one in particular from dendrophobe made me laugh/cry:
“From the red eyes alone, I’m guessing Eshonai as Odium’s champion.”
L: Oh, Eshonai. We barely knew thee…
A: It was a good guess. It was just wrong. ::sniffle:: Not that I wanted Eshonai to be Odium’s champion, natch. I’m just sad about Eshonai. Still.
L: But the winner of that thread is Mad Mic, who guessed it right in comment 72.
“Dalinar is odium’s champion…”
L: Granted, Dalinar turned it down, making Mad Mic only HALF right, so… half a cookie. And we’ll throw the other half at Amaram’s head.
A: Can we let that second half get good and stale first, though? Hard as a rock? Thanks.
L: Maybe we can Soulcast it. “But wouldn’t you rather be a rock? Think of how much more damage you’d do…”
A: I like it.
L: There’s also this interesting bit from The Way of Kings , from the same vision:
“You might be able to get him to choose a champion. He is bound by some rules. All of us are. A champion could work well for you, but it is not certain. And… without the Dawnshards…”
L: A few things to unpack here. For starters, Dawnshards are NOT the same as the Honorblades or regular Shardblades. Some have speculated that they’re weapons that were supremely powerful… even able to destroy worlds. It’s hard to say much about them, as there’s little in the canon and even the WoB’s are sparse—he’s RAFO’d every single one. This makes me wonder… where the heck are they now? Do we have any clues? Is Hoid hunting them, the sneaky bastard?
A: We have virtually no clues about what or where the Dawnshards are. (I wonder if Hoid does know anything?) The Stormfather calls them weapons ( Oathbringer Chapter 113), but given that it’s second-hand and Honor was raving at the time, I dunno. Their use apparently made Ashyn unlivable, so that the humans fled from there to the flying cities and to Roshar.
L: Is that in the text somewhere, or a WoB?
A: It’s … okay, it’s actually a couple of things combined. There’s that bit in Chapter 113 where the Stormfather quotes Honor as saying the Dawnshards were used to destroy the Tranquiline Halls, and there’s one WoB that says humanity’s move to the skies and the other planet were caused by the same cataclysm .
L: Fascinating, Captain.
A: A lot of people think that the Dawnshards are swords, but I’m inclined to think that they’re a gemstone or similar object that can hold incredible amounts of Investiture and/or magnify Surgebinding to a cataclysmic level. For all I know, that “perfect gemstone” we see later is actually a Dawnshard; at least, in the TWoK Chapter 36 epigraph, the Dawnshard is said to be able to “bind any creature voidish or mortal.” It’s a bit of a stretch to think that one of the Dawnshards has been sitting in the Thaylen bank for the last however-long, and no one knew it, but why not?
L: It’s as plausible as the Ravenclaw diadem being in the Room of Requirement the whole time…
A: True dat.
L: What about these rules Odium’s bound to? Does this have something to do with the Shard he’s got?
A: Hmm. I’ve always assumed that all the Shard Vessels were bound by rules inherent to the very nature of Adonalsium—something they couldn’t break if they wanted to. We know there were agreements among the Vessels, some of which were later broken, but this doesn’t seem to be breakable.
“What was that light I saw?” “Odium. The enemy.”
L: I find it interesting that a golden light is representative of “evil.” It’s a nice reversal of the trope that good guys are represented by white and bad guys with black.
A: It’s very like the Biblical story of Lucifer, who before his fall was a high angel and was called the Morning Star, the light-bringer. Without going into detail, there are lots of references to Lucifer/Satan presenting as an angel of light.
“Nine shadows? The Unmade. His minions, ancient spren.” Dalinar knew them from legend only. Terrible spren who twisted the minds of men.
L: Here’s our first mention of the Unmade! They were mentioned only once in The Way of Kings and six times over the course of Words of Radiance , mostly by Listeners—though Shallan invokes them once (““An animal that speaks! You’ll bring the eyes of the Unmade upon us.”) It’s in Oathbringer , however, that we finally find out what these creatures are—sort of.
A: Heh. Sort of, indeed. I’m really looking forward to discussing the Part Four epigraphs, which are all about the Unmade. For what it’s worth, Brandon did say that the Unmade en masse are sort of the Odium equivalent to the Stormfather/Honor and the Nightwatcher/Cultivation. Unfortunately, that was sort of… pried out in conversation, not recorded, so I can’t link the quotation.
L: He’s also said that most of them aren’t sapient , which is a pretty interesting distinction.
A: Oooooo! I missed that one. I know it’s implied in the epigraphs I just mentioned, but nice to have it confirmed.
L: It’s worth noting, however, that Words of Brandon are NOT canon. Even he makes mistakes, and reserves the right to change things sometimes if he needs to, to serve the story.
In the preview chapters, Isilel asked a great question:
“Weren’t the Unmade around before Heralds broke their oaths? I am fairly certain that it was implied somewhere that they were.”
L: I did a search of the Arcanum and found this one RAFO’d WoB on the subject, but canonically we have no evidence of this one way or the other.
A: We just have so little information about them! It hurts!! (I do have a theory that the Unmade were once human, but were un-made and re-made as Splinters of Odium. I expect it’s wrong, though. Most of my theories are.) However… the Midnight Essence vision Dalinar saw in TWoK Chapter 19 would seem to imply that the Unmade were active at that point, and that it was before the Desolations ended—probably in that stage where they weren’t so far apart people forgot about them, but not yet so close together that humanity couldn’t recover in between. Also, after the Radiant orders were created. So yes, I think Isilel is right: it’s strongly implied that the Unmade were active well before the Oathpact was broken.
Relationships & Romances
L: Let’s talk about Navani and Dalinar’s relationship. It’s so beautiful and wholesome. For Dalinar to have been in love with her for so long and then to finally have his dreams realized, and that she loves him back so completely and is perfect for him—it’s like a fairy tale ending.
And this worries me, because I know story structure. Navani is so awesome and she makes Dalinar so happy that I worry for her long-term survivability.
A: I concur; I worry about her. Then again, I worry about Dalinar, too.
I thought this was the most fascinating description of the woman he loves…
Navani Kholin was not some timid, perfect ideal—she was a sour storm of a woman, set in her ways, stubborn as a boulder rolling down a mountain and increasingly impatient with things she considered foolish.
He loved her the most for that.
Hah! Not sure I’d be flattered to be called “a sour storm of a woman”… Still, there it is.
L: I love it. He sees her how she really is and not as some idealized version of herself. If that’s not true love, I don’t know what is.
A: Interestingly, right after that he talks about her being “open and genuine in a society that prided itself on secrets.” I have to wonder if he sees “the real Navani” or not, because she strikes me as an accomplished manipulator.
L: You know… thinking back on it, I don’t think of her as a manipulator. She’s always seemed pretty genuine and open to me—the fact that she went out and painted that big huge glyph when she thought Dalinar was dead was incredible. I wouldn’t think that someone who was insular would be okay with displaying their grief so publicly. I can’t think of any examples of her acting in a manipulative way, but then… we all know how great my memory is for anything that doesn’t have to do with Kaladin or Adolin.
A: I’m not saying “manipulator” in a negative way; I just see Navani as someone who knows what she wants and will skillfully work the system (or people) as necessary to get it. Then again, compared to most of Alethi society, I guess that is relatively straightforward.
Squires & Sidekicks
L: 95% sure that the scout mentioned at the end here is Lyn, since she’s been hanging out with Bridge 4 and it would make sense for her to be the one to get sent up to report in to Dalinar here. She’ll be back later, so for now it’s just worthwhile to note that she shows up.
A: I’m too lazy to go chase it through for proof, but I’m with you. Pretty sure it’s Lyn. Hi, Lyn!! ::waves::
L: ::waves:: Oh wait, you meant Fiction!me, not… Real!me… Not gonna lie, guys, this gets pretty surreal sometimes.
A: Heh. I just pretend it’s all the same. Which isn’t really fair, because I know there are all kinds of differences between Lyndsey-the-author and Lyn-the-scout… but you’re the same person to me. ::blows kisses::
Places & Peoples
L: The windblades are super cool. Natural formations, or man-made? What do you think, Alice?
A: Well… I don’t think they were made by humans; I rather think they were Shard-made. It’s even possible that they were created by Adonalsium when he made the continent; he was so purposeful in its design that I can see him designing special, protected places for the people to live. Which, of course, makes me wonder if there was a time when these cities—or the locations, anyway—were occupied by the Singers prior to the arrival of the humans.
L: It’s worthwhile to mention the Oathgates here, too. We saw one back in Words of Radiance , but we’re definitely getting a lot more information about them here. There are ten total, only one is currently unlocked (the one from the Shattered Plains), and they need to be unlocked from both sides before they can be used. I’ve always loved insta-travel in fantasy novels, and this system is no exception.
Tight Butts and Coconuts
Somehow we’ll make them listen—even if they’ve got their fingers planted firmly in their ears. Makes one wonder how they manage it, with their heads rammed up their own back-ends.
L: Navani Kholin is a treasure.
A: Absolutely.
Cosmere Connections
A: There’s not a lot to say here, except to remind ourselves that numbers are Meaningful in the Cosmere. Sixteen is important throughout the Cosmere because of the sixteen Shards of Adonalsium. We’ve seen throughout the first two books how everything on Roshar runs in tens, because ten is significant to Honor. Now we’re going to start seeing things in nines, because nine is Odium’s special number. Nine Unmade, nine Shadows, and… well, lets just be on the lookout for nines, eh?
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
“Dalinar had discovered that he could now have these visions replayed for him at will [due to having bonded the Stormfather himself]”
L: When Dalinar asks if he can go down to the city, the Stormfather replies, “You’re not supposed to go there.” But Dalinar insists, and the Stormfather complies (with a moody sigh). I love that Dalinar has already started to order him around. Poor, put-upon Storm-Daddy. He just wants to roll around Roshar and slide into people’s dreams. Why you gotta be so bossy, Dalinar?
A: The one that cracked me up was when Dalinar makes that request and the Stormfather rumbles, Dalinar’s all, “At least today he’s not using the voice that rattles my bones.” He’s so irreverent sometimes. Poor Stormfather.
Quality Quotations
You can find refuge from these storms, Son of Honor. Not so with our enemies.
Well, that was a short but interesting chapter! We got mentions of Odium’s Champion and the Unmade, set up Dalinar’s motivation moving forward (as if we didn’t know that Unity was going to be his big goal…) and got a great hook for the next chapter. Will Dalinar figure out that his eldest son is a murderer? Does anyone even really miss that snake Sadeas, anyway? How about Bridgeboy Broody-eyes and his quest to save his family, and Shallan, and… well, we’re getting a little ahead of ourselves. Join us next week when we delve into Chapter Two, and as always feel free to join in on the conversation in the comments!
Alice is being reminded that despite the Weeping and the plague (or flu, or whatever is going around), life just keeps being busy. Whew! She hopes you’re all enjoying the Kaladin album from The Black Piper , because sometime soon she’ll show up here with a whole post about that project. Message her if you have any questions about the album you’d like to ask the creators.
Lyndsey ’s so ready for winter to be over. She’d much rather live in Roshar and have to deal with Highstorms and Weepings than the cold! If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or her website .
By the end of part one, I was sure Dalinar had written the in-universe OB, but then I started reading the comments on the preview chapters and almost no one agreed with me. Then we got to Dalinar asking Navani to teach him to read and write and he wrote the first line, and Yay! I was right about the author!
ETA: And I’m so used to being months, if not years, behind the reread, that it feels very weird to have the first post.
I love Navani. For some reason I expect her to live through the series. Dalinar on the other hand…. I love the Dalinar/Stormfather relationship. And I was one of those that didn’t even consider Dalinar writing Oathbringer. I thought it was Jasnah the whole time. But I did guess that he would be Odium’s champion. It’s really fun going through the book again and seeing which of my theories were right and wrong. But it’s SO hard just doing one chapter at a time. I’ll admit a read a little ahead.
i don’t envy the job of having to write an entire article for every chapter. When I reread it and took notes, I was surprised at how little seems to happen. But then, it is chapter one.
re worrying over Navani – it’s Dalinar I fear for.
Re odium being “gold”. I find this strange because elsewhere Honor is gold. Unless it’s a universal shardic colour.
My only additional contribution is on the vision of Kholinar. Why a vision of the city destroyed, specifically Dalinar’s Kholinar (I’m sure his personal palace is observed previously). Honor is said to be useless at predicting the future. That cultivation is better. Yet this seems pretty spot on.
@1 mathbard re ETA: Ditto!
Going over my notes, the chapter seemed to be more of an establishing scene to remind us where we are and set the mood. Not too much going on, although it was cool to see Dalinar revisiting his visions and getting new perspectives. The chapter served well to set the tone and remind us of how overwhelming the recent events have been for those concerned.
I was interested to note how Dalinars understaning of the command to “Unite them “ evolved over time. At first it was to unite the Alethi High Princes. Then it was the Knights Radiant. Then all of Roshar. And then why not Unite the Cosmere Realms too? Who knows, before this is done is he going to have to reunite The Shards back into a single Power?
Thinking of that reminded me of that scene from Harry Potter where Aberforth complains to Harry that Dumbledore never gave Harry a reasonable task for a boy, you know? First just survive. Actually you need warn the world that the evil powerful wizard is back. Now please help me hunt down his weaknesses. By the way you will have to kill said evil wizard. Also you must die.
Thanks again both of you for doing this. :)
Aah, the Oathbringer preface, so many arguments. Don’t forget all the people who thought it was Jasnah (at least between the weeks that we got ‘I hung between realms’ and the week the preface said ‘I have no doubt that you are smarter than I am’). What I recall of the preview chapters is that I thought it was Dalinar (though I did suggest Amaram once as an out of left field option), but I don’t really feel like reading back through all those comments to check.
About Odium’s champion, I wonder what exactly about the eyes Dalinar thought was so familiar. That they were literally his own eyes (if so, how could Honor have known this?), or was it the Thrill?
The dawnshards keep getting more and more mysterious.. I do believe we know that the knife that was used to stab Jezrien was not a Dawnshard, so that’s one object we can cross out. Only all the other objects in the Cosmere to go.
Gemstones sound like a plausible option (like the stone of the Ten Dawns both Kaladin and Vstim mention at points in the book?).
Navani is great. I wrote some notes down while reading this chapter, and one of them was simply ‘Navani = amazing’
Other than that, I think Navani is politically skilled, but I don’t think that necessarily means she’s very manipulative (at least not with her family and close friends). She knows how handle conversations with people, but we’ve also seen her go off on tangents about fabrials and things that interest her, even when the other person (Gavilar, Dalinar, Adolin) is basically bored with it. I think that someone more manipulative would have handled many of those conversations differently. It doesn’t seem like she’s hiding her real self in those conversations.
Thanks for another great article, ladies!
I love the transition from the last line of this chapter to the chapter title for chapter 2. It’s just so perfect. I love Palona’s reaction – I can’t say I condone murder, but I’m certainly happy Sadeas is no longer an issue.
Part of me really likes the idea of the Dawnshards just being perfect gemstones, but the other part of me thinks that’s too simple an answer.
I second dawnshards being perfect gems. It fits with the whole binding line. The only interesting WoB is one is different from the rest.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/226-words-of-radiance-release-party/#e4824
I’m a little concerned that there’s something darker about Navani waiting to come forth.
It is a fairy-tale. Too much of one. I’m not worried about her dying. I’m worried about something more terrifying.
The brightest lights cast the deepest shadows.
Re perfect gemstone of a dawnshard just sitting in the Thaylen bank. Why shouldn’t it be there? After all, for a lot of these objects you have to know what they are and what they do before you can use them propenly. Like the Honorblades. So unless they know it’s something more than a perfect gemstone that’s literally all it can be. (Like the diadem of Ravenclaw in HP 6.)
Navani is really skilled at manipulating people. And because she is good at that she knows when it’s better to act like herself (talk about fabrials where no one cares) and use that to her advantage as well. If all you do all the time is try to twist people they catch on and you aren’t effective anymore. So that skill+knowledge of the Alethi political scene+being Gavilar’s wife and then Dalinar’s (effectively making you top woman) makes her unstoppable. But she doesn’t use all the tools at the same time.
I really thought it was Jasnah writing the Oathbringer, until the part where it says ‘you’re all smarter than me’, which Jasnah would never say in writing like that.
YAY REREAD YAY!
Last Thursday was the day where my schedule broke loose and clubbed me, and continued to club me mercilessly until, well, about last night. For several days I worked and slept (with occasional bouts of hacking coughs). So, though I had gleefully listed to the Audio of the Prologue during my commute last Thursday morning, and was Full of Thoughts to share, and loved the article, Lyndsey and Alice – well, I then got clubbed by work, as I said. So, sadly, I didn’t get to participate in last week’s discussion.
But! It is a new week, and I’m only Very Busy, not INSANELY BUSY. And my morning meeting got pushed to this afternoon. So…*glances around furtively*…rather than taking the extra time to be more prepared, I’ve just read Chapter 1 on my Kindle. Now I’m going to read your article! And then write a Wall of Text commenting. BWAH HAH HAH I have returned, Tor Rereads!!
…ummm….
To those I haven’t talked with on rereads before, I don’t normally come across quite this crazy at first glance…I’m just excited after having to sit out, almost entirely, from the Words of Radiance and Edgedancer (and Way of Kings, for that matter) rereads.
Initial thoughts, having reread the chapter but not yet read the post or comments:
Not a lot to comment on here. Dalinar’s thought that Odium’s champion looks familiar is interesting in hindsight. We also get the ‘golden light’ description of Odium’s presence that we’ll continue to get throughout the book. Two interesting things there: one, that the Stormfather doesn’t see the light that Dalinar did – why? Is he just not paying attention? Two, when Dalinar describes the light, the SF immediately identifies it as Odium. Speaking from experience, clearly.
Dalinar describes the three problems with these new Desolations: only a handful of untrained Radiants; no sign of help from the Heralds; the Almighty dead. “Somehow, Dalinar was supposed to save the world anyway.”
Of course Dalinar isn’t supposed to save it alone, but…he alone of our other major characters has received this vision and the command to Unite them. I know, Gavilar and others have received the visions before; but of our living, major characters, including Kaladin and Shallan, Dalinar is the one to receive this vision, this command, and to lead them. Dalinar is the main character of Stormlight, imo, at least so far. He’s also my favorite – though the flashbacks in this book will strain that.
Anyway, Dalinar ids the 3 problems. Few Radiants, missing Heralds, no Divinity to help them. I wonder…by the end of the SA, will all 3 of these problems be solved…?
My favorite part is Dalinar’s new ability to control the visions. The evolution of this ability is one of the coolest things in the early sections of Oathbringer, imo. We/I had been wondering what powers Dalinar would manifest, and his ability to draw other people into the visions and use them for long-distance communication, *bonding* them together temporarily, is very neat – and Odium’s invasion of the visions extremely disturbing. But that’s all still to come.
The Unmade are mentioned here, but of course we’ll get much meatier stuff about them as we get into the story. I’m just noting the description of them here – nine shadows. Odium’s minions, ancient spren, according to the SF. In legend, they twist the minds of men. And I’m noting here that the Fused are *also* Odium’s minions, inhabited by cognitive shadows of dead Parshendi. Well, Singers, I should say. As cognitive shadows are basically equivalent to spren, as sentient pieces of investiture, I’ll also note here that the Unmade are not – are they? – are not presumably ancient Singers, but are Splinters of Odium who did not start out as Singers. I’m assuming this, but do we know it for sure?
One other thing I’ll note about the Unmade – I was surprised, in my first read, to see that not all of the Unmade are fully sentient. That’s not what I’d expected. In any case, I’ll be watching for and notetaking on the Unmade as we go – I find them fascinating.
Dalinar and Navani are good for each other. ‘Nuff said.
Finally, I note that Dalinar has interpreted “Unite Them. Quickly.” as “unite the nations against Odium faster than he can destroy them.” Will this ultimately be the correct interpretation, or will it be something else/more? Unite the Realms? Unite humans and Singers against Odium? Unite the splinters of Honor into a new Shard? So many possibilities, and even having finished Oathbringer, I’ve no idea which one or ones will be correct.
Lastly: “Unite them. Quickly.” Was that part of the original vision? “Unite them” was. Was it followed by “Quickly.” in the original vision? Or is there something different this time…?!?
Heh, I said I didn’t have much to comment on, then wrote a Wall of Text worthy of the old WoT Reread. Oops!
Ok, to the post!
From the description of the effects of the Dawnshards, my first thought says that they discovered nuclear weapons. They had “floating cities” which I read as “spaceships”. They came to Roshar, made nice with the Singers for a while then Odium arrived or came back or started meddling again, and in the course of Desolations, humanity forgot about that technology. I wonder if the original ship is on Aimia, where the assassin stopped from going in one of the Interludes, and where the blue skinned and made-of-cremlings immortals come from.
Incidental tangent musing, it seems operating a Soulcaster long term turns your body into the thing you make, like that explorer turns to smoke. Does that happen to the grain-makers too? Do their bodies turn to grain?
Any theories on the name “Dawnshards?” Shards of Dawn…dawning of reality? Something made, or incidentally created by, Adonalsium?
Oh! One more thing. As Dalinar is inspecting the rubble of Kholinar, he imagines what it was like to settle there before the walls were built, and thinks “it had been a hardy, stubborn lot who had grown this place.” He’s undoubtedly assuming they were humans, but…would they have been Singers? Was Kholinar a Dawn City? My guess is that all of the cities that have cymatic patterns (that Kabsal showed us) are Dawn Cities, and that they were built by Singers who were attuned to the Rhythms – hence they were able to build cities that matched the vibrational rhythms.
If so, it makes Eshonai’s awe at the city and palace of Kholinar poignant and full of irony. She wonders if her people could ever create such majesty and beauty – when the truth is, they probably did. Before the humans and Odium came. Before the Voidbringers.
Ok, so I went to the WoB link about the cataclysm, and I found this:
Reader: “Please write something new and interesting about Nebrask”
Brandon: “It is not the only portal to the chalkling world.”
…
WHAT? PORTAL? COSMERE CONNECTION? PERPENDICULARITIES? AKHJEPWUHWAJ:Q:KNPWJEH
I know that wasn’t related to Oathbringer, but AAAAAAAAA
@14 – That series is not a part of the Cosmere. Brandon said anything based on Earth or a version of Earth is separate from the Cosmere.
Great post ladies! Interesting thoughts on Thunderklasts and parallels with Soulcasting and Awakening. I’ve often thought about Vasher’s description to Vivenna of the four types of Biochromatic Entities, and that what he is describing is what Rosharans would call spren, of varying levels of sentience.
Re: the epigraph. Full confession: I had no idea that Dalinar was the author until pretty much the end of Oathbringer! At least I *knew* I didn’t know, though. I assumed it was probably Jasnah until we got an epigraph where the author stated that many of the readers of the epigraph were smarter than the author. At that point, I knew it wasn’t Jasnah! :) From that point on, I reconciled to having no idea, finding none of the theories of authorship very convincing, and deciding to wait on Brandon to reveal it. The reveal was amazing, though. I was really moved by the end of the story to see that it was Dalinar.
Re: Amaram’s virtual half-cookie – if we’re Soulcasting anyway, can’t we do like Jasnah showed us and Soulcast it into oil? And then Soulcast a spark? Pretty please?!? https://goo.gl/images/xxtlYg
Still reading the post! Ok, good, you’re talking about the Unmade: “A: Heh. Sort of, indeed. I’m really looking forward to discussing the Part Four epigraphs, which are all about the Unmade. For what it’s worth, Brandon did say that the Unmade en masse are sort of the Odium equivalent to the Stormfather/Honor and the Nightwatcher/Cultivation. Unfortunately, that was sort of… pried out in conversation, not recorded, so I can’t link the quotation.”
I was part of the prying, as Brandon wandered into the gaming room at JordanCon 2016 in the middle of the night, where a group of us had given up gaming and were in full Theoryland/Coppermind mode and arguing about the nature of the Stormfather. And basically, Brandon said exactly what you’ve said here, Alice. As I recall, we’d been theorizing that Stormfather and Cultivation were equivalent, and we specified that we meant Stormfather *before* Honor’s death, when Stormfather absorbed more of his power/personality/cognitive shadow/ehh? So Brandon agreed with us that at that point the Stormfather/Honor was equivalent to Nightwatcher/Cultivation, and that Odium also had sort of an equivalent uber-spren servitor – but that it wasn’t one, it was instead the Unmade en masse.
It was a very exciting moment. (And a great reason for Stormlight fans to come to JordanCon X this year!)
Note that Brandon in *no* way hinted at anything about a third Sibling to the Nightwatcher/Stormfather. I’m still bemused by all the Sibling stuff, as it in no way fits the apparent pattern: Odium/Unmade, Honor/Stormfather, Cultivation/Nightwatcher.
I should also note that before reading Oathbringer, I had assumed the Unmade were just pieces of Odium that he ripped off and sent out to do evil. I’m no longer sure of that, and think it’s possible that they are a) what I just said, b) cognitive shadows of humans, c) cognitive shadows of Singers, d) any combination of a, b, and c, or e) something else.
I got the impression that Thunderclasts are merely Fused that are a little too crazy to be trusted with mortal bodies now. Also, spren possessing something other than rock is basically what happens with the Fused (though they fully kill the soul of the body instead of merely overriding it).
Everything we know about the Dawnshards fits perfect gemstones (though they could definitely be something else). It’s often overlooked that (according to Navani in Words of Radiance) the only limitation on fabrial power is gemstone quality (too much energy being pushed through them and they break)…stick one of those things in a heating fabrial (or even worse, the Division equivalent of the Soulcasting and Regrowth fabrials we’ve seen) and you have a planet-destroying weapon.
Heck, one of the key factors in a multi-stage nuclear bomb (and most expensive substances by weight) is used commercially to make watches glow in the dark….simple things can be dangerous.
Re: Dawnshards: do we know how many there are? I’ve always assumed there were 10, because Roshar/Honor/etc.
But if the Dawnshards destroyed Ashyn, mostly, then maybe not. It may not matter, but…what if there were 16? That would be interesting. Since, y’know – at some point people made a weapon to kill Adolnasium, and all…
But the Dawnshards aren’t that weapon. Are they…?
Here is a guess: Dawnshards are what were used to shatter Adonalsium into what became the 16 Shards.
Elle @5. I got the impression that the image of Odium’s champion was not in the original visions Honor made. I think Odium himself somehow added this to the visions. In a future chapter, Odium is actually able to enter the visions.
This is all I have so far. Not a lot of baubles of wisdom I can share.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Yay! I love being right about something :D. Awesome that our esteemed re-readers have found the evidence that I only nebulously remembered existed. Anyway, something else to note about the Desolations:
In Dalinar’s vision with young Nohadon he says:
So it seems that it had been very long time between a prior Desolation and the one that he had to deal with. Surge-binders also started too appear for the first time not long before it arrived.
The vision with the 2 Radiants arriving to fight the Midnight Essence takes place during the “8th Epoch, three thirty-seven” – which, IMHO, is an indication of time elapsed since the last Desolation before it and also evidence for there being more than 9 Desolations all told, as it shows the beginning/foretaste of the 9th one, and we now know that there were at least 3 more including Aharietam. I like the proposed theory that the Final Desolation is the 16th.
Chaplainchris1 @10:
I wonder if all of the Unmade were originally splinters of Odium or if some of them belonged to the other Shards and/or used to be other beings. The Thrill in particular is red – the color of corrupted investiture, and words like “dominate” are sometimes associated with the feeling of it, so I can’t help but ask myself if it couldn’t have been a splinter of Dominion subverted and appropriated by Odium?
Also, Dalinar actually has 4 problems in that chapter – and, amusingly, neither he – well, he has a good excuse, with his missing memories, nor his advisors, who really fail there, see one of them – namely that given his record, other nations have every reason to distrust him and the Alethi in general. They aren’t just being petty and obtuse, as it seems initially – they have every right to be extremely suspicious and cautious.
The oddly dualistic attitude of the other Alethi Highprinces towards Dalinar in WoK and WoR – a mix of respect and disdain, also makes perfect sense after reading his flashbacks in OB.
Speaking of the Dawnshards – I don’t see how they could be the Perfect Gems, as those were well known immediately prior to the Recreance, as we learn from the epigraph to chapter 83:
Yet Honor, who died not long after the Recreance, spoke of them as something that no longer existed in his Kholinar vision. He had to be aware that the Perfect Gems continued to exist, though – the spren moneylenders in Shadesmar use them openly, after all.
Re: Dalinar seeing something something familiar in the eyes of the champion – I agree that it has to be the Thrill, because, thankfully, in Cosmere the future isn’t written in stone. Honor couldn’t have foreseen Dalinar specifically, even if he had been good at seeing the future.
Re: Navani – well, both she and Dalinar are in late fifties by RL standard and there is going to be a 15-20-year gap between the 2 sub-series, so it does seem likely that they could both die. And if Dalinar re-constitutes and takes up Honor, he might have to leave Navani behind, which would be sad, yet uplifting.
Lift is probably eating.
This wins the article this time for me.
Lightbringer @@@@@ 11; From the description of the effects of the Dawnshards, my first thought says that they discovered nuclear weapons. They had “floating cities” which I read as “spaceships”. – This made me think of * possible Sixth of Dusk and Bands of Mourning spoilers * the Ones Above and whether they might have anything to do with Ashyn, though I’m probably way off mark here (and leafing it now and finding the mentioning of a translating device makes me think they were rather from Scadrial)
Regarding the perfect gems and the one in Thaylen, nothing important to add at the moment, but it has always seemed funny to me that if Odium hadn’t tried to get it so bad, Dalinar would probably never known it was there or it was important and never used it to capture Nergaoul.
(Edit was after discovering I had put wrong things in italics)
If you’re going to Soulcast a cookie into stone, why not just use the Scone of Stone on Amaram? (Brandon Sanderson is a huge Pterry fan.)
It’s easy to see why people thought Oathbringer (in-world) was written by Jasnah. In many ways Dalinar and Jasnah are the most similar of the Kholins. The Blackthorn and the many-times-over assassin, for starters.
The vision of the Champion was not sent by Honor, or the Stormfather would know about it. It’s a vision from Odium. Odium himself later says he has been “talking to Dalinar” for a long time. Note that it’s the same vision Renarin (who also gets his future-sight from Odium) sees during the Sanderson Avalanche at the end.
The floating cities on Ashyn are literally floating cities, not spaceships. Brandon revealed that somewhere. However, we do (I conclude) see spaceship wreckage later in the story–as I wrote elsewhere, where do you think a bunch of aluminum plates came from for Hoid to deliver to Azure/Vivenna?
EDIT to respond to something posted while I composed this: Navani may become Cultivation after the current Vessel dies. Cultivation is clearly training up Nightwatcher to be her successor, as Honor did the Stormfather. Who would be better-suited to Nahel Bond Cultivation’s heir than Navani, whose internal monologue indicates that she considers fostering others’ achievements to be her talent (later in the book)? If both Navani and Dalinar ascend, they don’t have to be separated.
@preface: I knew it wasn’t Jasnah from how little was said in all those many words. Jasnah would have been hitting people over the head with the scroll they were writing on for wasting so much paper… I was fairly frustrated myself over how little intel that contained.
This is the first re-read that I am not reading MUCH later and I am excited to be participating. What a wonderful post for such a short but meaty chapter!
I was one of the people who was sure that Dalinar was not the author, but only because I thought it would follow past books and be an in-world historical text. I was delighted to be wrong, though, and have it be an in-world future text; what a fun twist!
Regarding the champion’s familiar eyes – I was never on board with the eyes being familiar because the champion was a Kholin (I think people were primarily speculating Dalinar, Adolin, Renarin , Elhokar if I remember correctly) but always thought it was because of the Thrill. After reading the whole book, I felt even more sure about that since several of Dalinar’s flashbacks discuss a recognition of the Thrill in his opponents. However, I think AndrewHB above raises an interesting theory about Odium having added the champion in; in that case, it would make sense to be Dalinar.
I also wonder how different things will truly end up from this vision. Is Sja-Anat really trying to abandon Odium? If she is being truthful, perhaps there will not be 9 Unmade supporting Odium’s champion and he will be easier to defeat. Granted, Odium seems to have many new tricks so probably not. Do we know if the champion battle will happen at the end of the first 5 or in the last book?
Also, I agree with LordVorless above; Navani is so perfect for Dalinar, that I am always afraid of a big reveal that she is not what she seems. I hope I never get one though because I absolutely love her character.
@9 stormlightchick
Isn’t that type of switching between ‘being herself’ and ‘being political’ part of Navani’s professional behaviour (in her ‘job’ as Alethi politician/(dowager) queen)? In any case, in her POV in Way of Kings she states that she’s tired of political manipulations and games, so we can probably assume most of her behaviour is genuine based on that.
@20 AndrewHB
Oh, that would really fit in with Odium’s ‘it’s not your fault, you can’t blame yourself, you were always fated to be my champion, stop resisting’ tactic.
@24 manavortex
Yes, definitely. If the whole book is written in the same style, no one on Roshar will have actually read all of Dalinar’s confessions, mostly because every potential reader fell asleep a quarter of the way through. :)
You can count he as one who thought the headers were from Jasnah. I figured out i was wrong before the end of the book, but it took a while. I guess the Alethi taboo on male literacy got to me.
Jeez, so many comments already! I promise I’ll be back to join in the conversation eventually, guys. I suddenly have a TON of editing on my own book to do VERY quickly, but I’ll be back as soon as I’m done. Promise. <3 Just didn’t want you to think I was ignoring you!
Can someone tell me where Navani was being manipulative? I don’t remember ever thinking of her as anything but genuine. She’s strong and speaks her mind, but that’s hardly manipulative. She gives advise and people follow it, but that’s because she gives good advise. I just don’t ever get a manipulative vibe from her.
If the Oathgates have to be unlocked from both sides, who unlocked the one to the Shattered Plains from the Urithiru side? Szeth didn’t bother with Oathgates, he just flew.
Just use dwarf bread to throw at Amaram.
If Navani turns out to be a problematic character it is probably because fabrials enslave spren.
After the first 3 installments of the in-world Oathbringer were released, I suspected the book was written by Dalinar or Jasnah. The 4th seemed to suggest Jasnah since we hadn’t seen Dalinar hanging between realms (yet). The very last installment pretty well blew the Jasnah theory out of the water, as others have pointed out, so I was back to maybe Dalinar, but who are the other possibilities? And there just weren’t any good ones who fit the narrative.
As to Odium’s champion in the vision, Dalinar and Adolin both seemed to be potential candidates to me. And Odium editing that part into the DVR in real time makes much sense.
I like the idea that the Dawnshards are perfect gemstones, but Isilel (@21) did take some steam out of that theory. Even so, I can believe that the KR (Elsecallers) may not have fully known what the gemstones they were protecting were capable of doing, and I’m not ready to take what Honor said in WoK Ch. 75 (“And…without the Dawnshards…”) as absolutely meaning they no longer exist. Perhaps they are simply misplaced. So…maybe? Honor did seem to believe that the Dawnshards are necessary to defeat Odium, so I hope they turn up.
chaplainchris1 @13: Yes, that!
birgit @30
The Urithiru-Shattered Plains (Narak) Oathgate was left unlocked on the Urithiru side, presumably as the exit point for everyone remaining there when the city was abandoned.
Dawnshards: Shards are typically references to bits of Adonalsium that are broken off into lesser powers (the 16 Shards). Dawn is typically used to refer to primordial things from before recorded history (Dawnchant, for instance).
My theory then is that Dawnshards are from the sundering of Adonalsium. As there were 16 great Shards that each embodied an Intent, perhaps there were bits of chaff, much smaller fragments that also broke away but were insufficient to contain anything so major as a complete Intent. There could be any number of such things.
Depending on how many Dawnshards there are in proportion to Shards, there might be as few as one per Intent (so the Dawnshard of Honor might be used to bind things, as with oaths, while the Dawnshard of Odium might be used to break or burn things), or as many as one per surge (though this seems unlikely to me). Regardless, they are unlikely to be identical one to another and each probably has its own unique and unrepeated function.
Assuming any of the above is correct, then the relative power of a Dawnshard compared to a proper Shard would be miniscule, as the latter are taken up essentially for life and grant one the power of remaking and reshaping creation. In contrast, the former are described as being carried (rather than absorbed or joined with), and seem to take the form of discrete objects. This suggests a rather more constrained level of potency compared to full Shards.
Compare Shards (and Dawnshards) to Splinters, perhaps. A Shard can separate Splinters from itself (or be fragmented by external forces, as Odium did to so many). Those Splinters vary in power and awareness (see the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher compared to honorspren and cultivationspren). At the shattering of Adonalsium, perhaps the Stormfather and Nightwatcher equivalent Splinters were the 16 great Shards, while all the lesser fragments became the Dawnshards.
In reference to “without the Dawnshards”, could they simply be somewhere a Roshar bound spren can’t see? Maybe Nalthis, Scadrial, or the place the people in that one forest ran fled.
One curious note to make with the context of thunderclasts being spren that possess stone. I remember Szeth making a huge deal about Shin being forbidden to tread on non-Soulcast stone. This was probably an early reference to the connection the Shin have with the spren, and the constant ability of some spren to possess such stone like a body.
JoshB @35 That seems like a possibility. I also rather like the comment made in last week’s post from Matt (@88 last week) that the Stone Shaman religion relates to the original arrival of humans on Roshar and the respect they gave towards their hosts.
chaplainchris1 @17 That’s cool to hear that the Unmade en masse are equivalent to the NIghtwatcher or the Stormfather.
I agree. I’m itching to find out what the connection is. That’s one reason why I’m curious if there is a 4th shard. Or as someone pointed out last week (sorry couldn’t find the post) perhaps some kind of mixing of powers between Honor and Cultivation?
chaplainchris1 @13 RE Dawn Cities I really like that idea and it never occurred to me before, but it makes tons of sense. The main cities on Roshar are ancient, and they are all these beautiful symmetrical shapes that can be reproduced with waves/vibration. So I like the idea that they were originally constructed by the Singers. This also reminds me that when the Dawn Chant was finally translated, it identified humans as the original Voidbringers, indicating that the Dawn Chant was probably written by or at least from the point of view of the Singers.
REREAD!! THANKS GUYS!!
Re Golden light: the bright, warm light that Dalinar can feel (end of WoR and as he’s settling in to write the in-book Oathbringer) – that isnt the golden light of Odium, is it? that’s the spiritual realm?
Re Odium’s Champion: this was some can of worms over on 17th Shard – if the vision Dalinar saw was himself, but he refused Odium’s offer, does Odium pick a new champion? was Dalinar’s vision of the future (meaning of the new champion picked by Odium), or of the future if he had accepted Odium’s offer (meaning that is a vision that will never come to pass)?
Re Navani: I’m very interested in learning more about Navani before Gavilar’s death. For example, her and Gavilar’s relationship. From what we’ve seen, Navani never loved Gavilar, at least in a romantic sense (the ketek she wrote for him broke my heart though), and Gavilar was too busy conquering and being King to pay Navani much attention. Also, maybe Navani was doing a lot behind the scenes we dont know about. If we get a Jasnah flashback book, maybe her perspective will clear up a lot of Navani’s backstory.
Re Oathgates: what the heck happened to Aimia? whats so dangerous there that all who seek to travel there must be murdered? Also: Feverstone Keep (where Dalinar’s vision of the recreance happened) is somewhere in Iri, near Rall Elorim? What happened there?
So many questions!!
Keep up the amazing work!
Gaz @@@@@ 37 – I’m also very interested in Navani’s character. For instance, although she may be politically experienced, it’s fairly clear she isn’t an infallible judge of character. In WoK she returns to the Shattered Plains from Kholinar, where she had gone in part to keep an eye on Aesudan. Now, she came back largely because she was fed up as being treated like a has-been, but it was also fairly substantially implied that she thought Aesudan was doing fine, so what happened there? In addition, there are hints that she and Jasnah haven’t always understood each other perfectly, and she wasn’t entirely in Gavilar’s confidence either.
I would have loved to see the part of the backstory where Navani first met the Kholin brothers, but evidently Brandon doesn’t intend to show us that. Ah well, I suppose it wouldn’t make a lot of sense to show Navani and Dalinar’s misunderstandings when we’ve already seen them resolved, and we don’t need to see absolutely everything.
The windblades:
I think you are looking past them a little to fast. Later in the book we find that inside of the windblades is the same type of strata that is in Urithiru hallways. Is that strata left from being formed by bindings or from earlier/more powerful reasons.
My prediction on this is that, like Urithiru, they were built to be powered in some way; built to provide an essential function. But now that they have fallen into the hands the Fused will that power be subverted?
P.S: I am only starting to dig into lore and backstory, however, my -first- thought on the King’s Drop (gem in the bank) was that it was a Dawnshard. A perfect shard of a gemstone that was once larger and “more” than it is now.
kirgin @39 Oh yes! I forgot that my eye had also been caught by the description of the strata on the windblades. I have similar questions and theories
Thanks Alice and Lyndsey
Interesting observations about the Thunderclast. I wonder if they can inhabit a city square or plaza, if the ground isn’t completely paved over. After all, the underlying ground should still see itself as… well, the ground. This would be a great method for sneak attacks.
I am glad that we’re able to go back and look at the comments and theories from the preview chapters. The theories about the authorship of Oathbringer and Odium’s chapter were all over the place. Good on Mad Mic for winning the (half) virtual cookie.
Interesting theory about Honor’s Drop/King’s Drop ruby (they likely are the same thing) being a Dawnshard. I’m leaning towards it being part of Urithuru, myself. The Elsecallers may have placed each of the perfect gems (referenced in Chapter 83’s Epigraph) in different locations throughout Roshar. As for the Dawnshards actual location, I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s what the Dysian Aimian “cook” is protecting (in the Kaza Interlude, I-4 of Oathbringer) where the result of discovery described as “the cost would be the ends of worlds.” If the Dawnshards did lead to the destruction of Ashyn, then it makes sense that the Aimians would kill to prevent their discovery.
Re: Cosmere Connections and the number 16 – Arcanum Unbounded’s map of the Roshar system shows us that there are 16 planets/moons total (10 gas giants, 3 inner planets, 3 moons orbiting Roshar).
#3 Bandicoot: Remember that after his wife’s death, he and the boys moved into the King’s Palace. Dalinar had previous to that had spent most of his adult years in the field. He didn’t appear to have a great deal of affection for his palace.
stormlightchick @9 – You get what I meant!! Thank you. Being a manipulator doesn’t have to imply dishonesty; it’s just a matter of knowing when and how to say or do things to get the result you want. Being a born manipulator myself, I think I recognize it in Navani, I guess. I can be perfectly open and genuine when that’s the right play, but sometimes it’s not. Then… well, you don’t have to lie to present things in the light you want them seen, or carefully choose just the right wording to get the desired result. I think Navani is very good at that. And for what it’s worth, being a manipulator is rarely intentional – not when you’re really good at it.
In my ebook, before the chapter begins is a color illustration with the notation “Locations of the Oathgates” It’s headed by what looks to me like a poorly-traditionally-recalled lion and a leung, a Chinese “dragon”.
A leung? What the heck is that doing on Roshar?
At the bottom of the page, six human figures watch a seventh who is doing something involving waving his hands toward … are those cometspren like Timbre? The figures are overshadowed by a great storm (Highstorm?) and I don’t know the significance of the blue pole-like things on the right of the image.
Anyone have any idea what the heck is going on in that picture?
I am terribly late for the re-read: life is crazy there days and I couldn’t find the time to re-read the chapters, as I wanted to. Hence, I have three chapters to re-read this week-end.
Going from memory, one of the topic of discussions I have seen come across often with this chapter was the identity of the champion. As Alice and Lyndsey pointed out, Adolin came out as the most frequently named character. Now we read the entire book, my thoughts are what Dalinar recognized within the Champion eyes weren’t someone he knew, but himself, the Thrill addiction. If I recall properly, he is described as having crazy eyes as he came back from his failed ambuscade, moments before ordering the destruction of Rathalas. I believe these are the eyes he recognize, the familiarity because he knows all too well what it is like to fall prey to the Thrill.
I’ll admit I am baffled at still seeing readers thinking it may be Adolin: it makes me wonder what it will take for readers to stop naming him as a “candidate” as I thought OB definitely eliminated him.
Another interesting topic was Navani herself. She’s a character not having really come to life for me, within this narrative. I am still puzzled as to where the author is going with her character. I also have a hard time getting her personality: while she came across as detrimental and judgmental towards others, she is also described as emphatic by others, but it doesn’t really come across very strongly into the narrative. I am afraid I can’t share Dalinar’s enthusiasm towards her character, something is missing.
@44 Carl I was JUST about to post the same thing. WHAT is that chinese dragon doing on a Roshar painting??! For that matter, if the other animal is a lion…have we seen lions on Roshar before?
Also the flowing green vine things on the right edge of the picture look really Cultivationey.
#44. Carl: For reasons I do not understand, my hardback book illustration is in black, white, and greys. The colored illustration in the Ladies article made the Oathgate map clearer to see and understand. It also made some of the points that you are discussing clearer and easier to see. As far as the animals on top, it seem strange that they would represent animal not seen on Roshar in the marking. Prehaps the lion and the dragon are common to Shin territory, human’s first home on Roshar. What caught my eye, looking at the colored picture, was the wall needed for the dragon to rest upon. The characters and the comet like spren. What I’m seeing are regular windspren, the kind that are maybe building armor for Kaladin. The dark of the storm provides an interesting contrast to the lighter back ground of the gate locations.
The thing that you didn’t mentioned is not all the paths lead to the same place. Shattered Plains and Thaylen City lead to Alethkar. I am not certain why that is showed that way. The blue pole like thing looks like a sliver of a moon. Perhaps, it is a timing thing. This is the time that we have meetings.
@11 Emerald soulcasting savantism appears to involve vines as we see later.
From the smokestone soulcaster I’m wondering if killing yourself through excessive soulcasting turns you into the relevant kind of spren.
@23 There is a soulcaster tuned to make aluminium. Shasllan thinks about how soulcasting is the only source of aluminium while ransoming her brother.
My impression on the Dawnshards is they were another class of surge using devices like the Soulcasters or Nale’s regrowth item that manipulated Cohesion.
Mph. I found Dalinar in the first two books unpleasant to ‘watch’ on the battlefield and not particularly ininteresting elsewhere. After reading his horrific flashbacks in this book, most of which I won’t reread, I found him repulsive. He’s doing impressively well now, but it’s hard for me to see past what he’s done. Navani’s love for him is as surreal to me as it is for him, although she doesn’t know the worst truths about him. But I enjoy their relationship nonetheless, because it’s sweet and I usually enjoy seeing not-so-young people find love at last. It gives me hope for my own prospects. I worried when readers here speculated that his returning memories of Evi would be balanced by forgetting his current wife, because I didn’t want her to lose another loved one and the happiness she had found with him. And I grinned when in WoK Dalinar ended his takedown of Elhokar with “Oh, and I’m dating your mother now.”
@44 and @47 I think that blue pole/ half moon looks like a portal. The people seem to emerging from it. Could it be their escape from Ashyn?
**EDIT** Note it also looks like flames are emerging from the portal with them and they look distressed, which implies that they are escaping from something.
Also @47 I toothought it odd that neither of the creatures depicted were crustacean.
#50 3:. Excellent thinking as far as the portal. It does look like one. And you are correct, it could represent their escape from Ashyn, but then, why put it on a modern picture to do with the Oathgate? If they were depicting them escaping from their former home, no shells would be among the beast they brought with them.
@44,46 and 47
Is it possible that this drawing of Urithiru includes animals that were familiar to certain worldhoppers? No-one can worldhop from earth (as it isn’t in the Cosmere), but pre-lord ruler I believe Scadrial was pretty earth-like. They had things like horses, so maybe lions too?
In Chinese culture lions traditionally stood in front palaces, tombs, temples and government offices as they were believed to have protective benefits. The dragon symbolises formidable power, especially over water, rain and floods. It also means strength and good luck for people who are worthy of it. So in terms of what they stand for their inclusion on this drawing makes sense, even if we aren’t sure how they got here…
Or maybe this drawing was done in Shinovar, the grass down the bottom looks pretty dumb (as Rysn would say). It always struck me that the Shin culture was similar to many Asian cultures here on earth. Maybe they have dragons too.
But isn’t that Nazh’s writing? He has definitely been to Scadrial. Did he just annotate the map long after it was drawn?
In the illustration the women are not covering their safehands. This is presumably pre-modern-Vorinism, or at least non-Vorin in origin.
Brandon has said that the SA was influenced by Chinese tradition, specifically Daoism. In Daoism, I believe tiger-vs-dragon is a big thing. And we know that Hoid was literally writing letters to a dragon in a previous volume’s epigraph. Tiger=yang, dragon=yin in this context. I suspect we might be seeing a lion substituted for the Earth tiger here.
Speaking of the yin/yang dualism. Consider Honor and Cultivation in that light. Yin=masculine, sky, fire, storms. Yang=feminine, dark, woods, water, earth. Gee, you don’t think BWS was telling the truth about Daoist influences in this series, do you?
Note that in Daoism (or Chinese folk belief generally) shen are non-material or semi-material beings of all sorts, including both divinities and what Westerners would just call “spirits”. (Compare to the Japanese word kami.) I suspect spren=shen here.
@53 – I think you are right; I believe pre-Lord Ruler Scadrial did have lions since I am pretty sure I remember Wax telling a story about a couple where the man spent money to lure city residents out to the Roughs to hunt lions, then found out it was illegal to kill them. I think Sazed restored to Scadrial its pre-Lord Ruler flora and fauna as part of the Catacendre.
Two things:
1. The mention of Adolin killing Sadeas and knocking Eshonai off the ledge made me think,”No one major dies in this series until Adolin says they die.”
2. Theory, unmade are formed the first time each herald breaks first. There are nine because the last one never broke before. Until now. New Unmade incoming Maybe?
Could the people coming out of the moon-portal be the Heralds at the beginning of a Desolation?
When talking about Navani’s character you have to remember she was a Queen. Her life, and keeping it, was all about politics. She is now taking charge of her life in a more direct manner by actively pursuing Dalinar and taking her role as advisor/protector to him. She was never a mild little wife to Gavilar but now she is a force to be recognized.
As for the Stormfather, he isn’t the most reliable narrator. He seems to be wrong or partly wrong a lot of the time.
birgit @57
Now that’s an interesting thought, which could be a better theory than people escaping from Ashyn. The flames (if that’s what they are) seem odd in that context though. The Heralds should be coming from Braize, and Khriss describes that planet as cold and inhospitable. Ashyn is the planet I associate with heat, perhaps incorrectly.
FWIW, Dawnshards bring to mind balefire.
@49: Dalinar has never been a character I found interesting. I have always find he worked well, as a more minor character, but I have to admit, after a full book focusing on him, I have come to hope the next book will be more sparse in terms of Dalinar. I thought WoR had just the right amount of Dalinar, enough to be interesting, not too much such as to over-extend his welcome.
In Oathbringer, I have to admit I often found Dalinar’s chapters long. I absolutely loved his flashbacks, but I felt little sympathy for older Dalinar which made his very internal arc less interesting to read. I would have preferred had his character be forced to consider how his actions influenced/ruined those around him as opposed to solely read how it plunged him into drunkenness. It made him appear very selfish as all he seemed to care about is how he hurt, how he “suffered” over his own deeds whereas, from my perspective, he didn’t suffer nearly enough for what he did. Him having to watch the consequences over his closed ones would have, IMHO, been more interesting to read. It would have also help some readers feel more positive about his character.
On the matter of Navani, I honestly never understood why she loved him so much. I can understand why Dalinar loves her, but Navani? Young Dalinar was brutish, dumb, selfish, idiotic and self-serving not to forget ugly: what did he have which made Navani fall into such a deep love she would never forget him? I can see why Navani might love older Dalinar, but his younger self? Honestly, how can anyone love this man? This also brings in the topic of how everyone within his family sees him as a great man. How can they think so highly of Dalinar considering he spent 6 years being drunk? How can Navani/Jasnah/Adolin be fine with Dalinar ignoring Renarin for a more than a decade? How can they love him?
Such were my thoughts when I read Dalinar in OB.
@60: I thoroughly agree.
@56, John:
So Elhokar is still alive, then?
60, it can indeed be difficult when an author writes a character who has done some terrible things (even a protagonist), to empathize and understand why not everybody just writes them off as despicable. It’s one of the known perils to making a character do something shameful. After you’ve taken them to the gutter, bringing them back up again may not sit well with everybody. And doing it in a way that doesn’t leave them crippled with shame, but has them going back out again? Tough one there.
But Dalinar might have been a bit less than suave, maybe even something of a brute, but it wasn’t in a hateful or oppressive way. He has enemies. He fought them. He never thought of himself as a match for his brother, or even Sadeas, not away from the Battlefield. But let’s not pretend that isn’t glorified in his homeland, or in general. I don’t think Navani would necessarily be immune to that sentiment herself.
Now with Renarin, much of it is possibly like this song, not all of course, but the rest is Dalinar’s own limits. He know he’s not the kind of person children should like. He’s a bit ashamed of that too, but he also wishes to do well by his sons…yet is he the right individual to father them? He may try, but then he may push them harder when they need hugs. Parenting is tough. Parenting is extra tough for some. Besides, there’s a lot more abusive fathers to worry over.
#60 & #61: On Dalinar. You all appear to live in a harsh world. Where if someone sins, they can never repent or change their ways. They were evil and did terrible things and can never visit other humans forever. What about the assassin in white, Szeth. Yes, he was following the directions of other men, but he killed so well. If he had left the leadership in place, some of those countries may have stayed stable and not collapsed. Does a high officer with Sadeas have the excuse that he was just following orders. For that matter, if the Herald Nale switches sides again, can he ever be forgiven of killing the shoe maker, because he had that regrowth thing going. He was healing the bottom of children’s feet so they could wear the shoes that he had to give to them.
Well I am old and my life has not been perfect. I am willing to believe that people can change. Yes, Dalinar was very deadly in his warrioring. Part of the blame is his brother, who decided that he would be king and the Blackthorn was his weapon. Younger brothers are like that, willing to do most anything to please the older brother. In a way, Odium is correct. His minions, particularly the red thrill unmade, raised the urgency to continue battling long after reason would have stopped the action. It was pleasing to Dalinar, and definitely addicting. Do you blame Teft for all the problems that he caused with his addiction. He wasn’t a prince and a high leader, but a member of Bridge Four was killed and two were severely injured. And the Honor sword was lost. Still, he has an honor spren hovering over him, badgering him to complete his oaths.
Back to Dalinar, with his redemption he is slowly making big changes. Certainly the way that he has lived his life since his brother died, has been an example for all to see. If he were still the same drunken fool, I believe that he would have been more likely to accept Odium and act as his champion. But he didn’t. His behavior has made him an example for others, even from the lowest of humanity. He changed Kaladin, and Szeth. His sons have been able to grow and mature in healthy ways. With little help from Stormfather, he has been slowly making progress on “Unite them!” .An impossible task, but he is doing it, for the love of the entire world. Navani loves him because she can see how much he cares. He will save the world, one person at a time. He will bring back the light and encourage every soul to be the best they can be. Find a way that Parshendi and humans can live in the post desolation environment in peace.
64, I want to thank you for your insights again AlerieCorbray! You’re so often a thoughtful and insightful poster, not that I’m impugning the character of those you replied to, they have some degree of legitimate concern, but I sincerely appreciate yours most especially.
I think Dalinar’s lucky he got the chance to be a better person. Just imagine if he’d died, without ever having seen another way. Sometimes people do sink to the lowest depths before climbing back out again, we shouldn’t despise them for having gone through the muck, but be glad they had the opportunity.
I disliked Szeth and Nale durimg their times of ruthless killing that I had to read about, though I pitied Szeth because he truly felt he had no choice. I was very displeased when Sseth was not only resurrected but teamed up with Nale and Nightblood. It’s been good to watch their characters change (bless you, Lift) and I am a complete pushover for redemption arcs. Believe me, I love seeing characters rise from those dark depths — most of the time. But I have limits, arbitrary as they may seem. As I said, Dalinar has very much changed for the better and is doing admirably at a nigh-impossible task. But after seeing the harm he has done to so many people (especially Evi), and spending so much time in his mind as he did it, I am not obligated to like him. We all love and hate the characters we love and hate, for differing reasons.
#65. LordVorless: .Actually Dalinar talks about getting older and out growing his half beast nature. They didn’t seem too comforted by his saying that. He was lucky to have support of his family and friends, when he hit rock bottom. I thought that it was interesting that when the full force of his forgotten memory hit him that he was able to run from violence into the Oathgate. I’m dying to know what he was able to pull up to make the gate function. Was it Stormfather’s sword, that had been refused him? Not the best thing for human/spren relationships. It makes it hard in any relationship for one party to be unwilling to accept reasonable terms. Dalinar went to face Odium, armed with only a book that he couldn’t read. At that point it was mostly symbolic. He knew that a weapon in his hand, could not help him win over the enemy. It was a war of minds and emotions and most of all of inner strength. That is a talent that Dalinar possesses, stronger than almost anyone else alive. That iron nerve, and the ability to quiet fear and put it in its place.
#66:. It seems like you are most against Dalinar because of what he did to Evi. And what do you think that was? I likely see it differently. He agreed to a political marriage with a foreigner, who wanted to be married to someone, who would protect her. She wanted a warrior, but had no clue what a marriage to a Alethi High Prince was like. Their whole culture revolved around war making and had been like that since before the time of the Heralds. She begged him to be less warlike, which was against the nature of his countrymen. When he entered a battle, she begged him not to kill anyone. She brought those miseries down on herself. In that final battle of the riff, she went to plea with the rebels and found herself captured. That was very foolish behavior. She was not supporting her husband. Eventually, he would have relented, but it was too late to save any lives. It was a strong punishment for lying to Dalinar and killing his men and trying to kill him. But he knew that it must be a strong response. This is the strength that kept their country going. It must be done.
#68 – I think this line of reasoning is very harsh towards Evi, and is not something I understand. I have seen a lot of people on the forums stating that she didn’t support her husband, but that is not the way I see it at all. Her brother married her off to Dalinar, who treated her the way he viewed her – as a woman he never wanted. Despite that, she raised their sons to love and adore Dalinar and did her best to encourage Dalinar to be the man he as capable of becoming (the man we see and respect in the current Dalinar scenes). This may not be accurate, but I always interpreted her encouragement of him not to kill not as her literally saying don’t kill anyone (though I think the killing made her sad, how could it not?) but as her trying to reach Dalinar through the Thrill’s influence. She seemed to be able to see when he was under its influence and worked to try to get him to move past it, thus the drastic move of going to the enemy camp before her death. She saw that he was completely under the Thrill’s influence and felt the only way to avert a disaster for the city was to do something so drastic that Dalinar would be forced to think beyond the Thrill. Tragically, her plan did not work since Dalinar was too stupid in the moment to even realize that the city leader would not be dumb enough to use the same safe spot for his family since he knew Dalinar knew of it.
I am in the middle on Dalinar. I think his character works in the story. They do have an insanely war-focused culture. However, he also helped to grow and enforce that culture in my view. He also was an atrocious father for much of his life, especially towards Renarin, and even at best he was basically an absentee father even towards Adolin before he became a drunken disaster. Renarin’s love for a father who didn’t value him as a child and who was drunk throughout his early teen years is very touching and tragic (especially the scene where he buys his dad alcohol). To me, killing Evi is not his worst sin, but consigning an entire city of women and children to a slow tortuous death by fire is. In the real world, he is not a man I would ever trust or think could be redeemed. The treasure of it being a novel is that we can see the man he is now and know he is no longer that way since we are in his head. How everyone else still loves him is somewhat of a mystery to me since I know I would never be able to move past those things. I know right now they don’t necessarily know the worst of what he has done, so the ramifications of publishing in-world Oathbringer should be interesting.
#68: That’s an excellent response to the questionmarks over Dalinar! I think it’s exactly what Navani would have said if she were subscribing to this thread. Brought up as a warrior prince, honed by countless battles, driven by Odium’s ‘thrill’, it’s no wonder that Dalinar was a hard, relentless soldier. The betrayal followed by the attempt on his life made a hard response inevitable. That’s not to say his action in wiping out an entire city was acceptable—he clearly went too far, and he bitterly regretted it—but there was a high degree of inevitability in it. Push a man too far and you’re liable to cause an unacceptable outcome.
Like you, I don’t think the harsh comments are fair and I believe in redemption. It seems to me that Dalinar has more than redeemed himself already and bids fair to become a Herald of the future—a true hero and worthy main character in the SA series. Just saying…
This discussion is focusing on Dalinar, but how many main characters in the Stormlight Archive have not done things that are hard to forgive and/or understand, on both sides? In addition to AlerieCorbray’s examples, consider that Shallan murdered her father by slow strangulation after poisoning him. Later, among other things, she stabbed someone with a dagger just to make herself look scary and impressive. Adolin (as Gepeto will doubtless be thinking) murdered a guy in a blind rage, and later rationalized the act as practical politics Alethi-style. Jasnah hired multiple assassins, off-screen. (We might see those in her flashback book.) Venli caused the Final Desolation and destroyed her own people, the Listeners, through sheer selfishness.
So far, Lift is about the only no-tragedies-caused protagonist and she was a professional thief (if a very unharmful one) until fixing Gawx. Heck, look at the minor characters: Ym was a killer, Rysn was a storming self-destructive over-ambitious fool who crippled herself and made her babsk miserable by overreacting and refusing to think. Also consider the squires–Kaladin’s squires (and now Teft’s) were largely bridgemen, who were in that role for a reason, and Shallan’s squire was an army deserter and bandit before she recruited him. (Characters based on real people, like our hostess Lyn, are an exception, and the Lopen is as always sui generis.)
Since there has been discussion of Navani: as far as we know she hasn’t caused any atrocities, but she seems to have been a terrible mother. She raised misfit antisocial murderous lunatic Jasnah and ineffectual, insecure, paranoid Elhokar. Despite his acknowledge sins and failures, notice how much better Dalinar’s kids turned out? Whatever you say about Evi she was a good mom. It also seems likely that Navani fixed Elhokar up with the Odium-supporting, self-indulgent sybarite Aesudan, who Jasnah was suspicious of before their father’s assassination.
One gets the feeling Moash won’t be redeemed any more than Amaram was, and for the same reason: he is actively refusing his chance at redemption, as (for instance) Venli has not.
@67, AlerieCorbray:
It was the Stormfather as a sword. Dalinar apologizes to him later. What’s interesting is that the usually-very-touchy Stormfather doesn’t actually seem that upset.
Personally, Dalinar was a character that worked for me, but I can get why he wouldn’t for others. Of the three main POV characters, I have found it interesting in the reread to see how people all react differently to their story arcs. Many people identify Kaladin as the main protagonist and love his POVs, especially when he goes all Radiant, but then they just hate it when he gets all mopey and depressed. Some really dig Shallan, some find her annoying. Same here for Dalinar.
I can see why the Alethi would have a mix of feelings towards Dalinar. In a warrior culture, he was the consummate warrior, the Blackthorn. He was a man to be feared and thus a man to be respected. Then he lost his wife and became a drunk, which made him a man to be pitied but no less feared. Then after Gavilar’s death he sobered, but became a man infatuated with ancient codes of a despised ancient order and infatuated with very un-Alethi (or very unmodern) ideas of Honor. And because he stopped being the Blackthorn and because of the holes in his memory, he became something else to them: a hypocrite. As Evelina @69 said, we have the benefit of being in his head and seeing that modern Dalinar is a man who is trying to be a better man, and that is made all the more poignant when his memories come back in and he his reminded of the terrible things that he has done. And I think we are all supposed to be rightly horrified at what he did and who he used to be, and I suppose that Brandon intended for us to stop and ask “Who is this guy?” As Carl @71 points out one of the main themes of the SA is that all of the major characters are deeply flawed. In fact, Syl even says that to Kaladin in reference to the KR, “They were all broken”. It seems to me that this becomes in part a source of their strength through the Nahel bond and what the Ideals are supposed to accomplish: recognizing where you are weak, owning your flaws and mistakes, but ultimately not letting those stop you from reaching and striving to become something better and to acheive something Ideal. Life before death, journey before destination. (Note that the irony is that we see that even in this, people become fixated on a single Ideal, and that this doesn’t necessarily produce “good” people, such as Malata or Nale.) Anyway, while I liked Dalinar and his story arc, I can appreciate why others disliked him and that’s OK.
Re Evi, I think I agree with Evelina @69. I always got the impression that she did love Dalinar, despite the gulf between cultures. And that even though the constant warfare and killing made her sad, she still was trying to show him that she loved and supported him. While her actions at the Rift were dangerous and probably foolish, I love her for trying to save her husband from doing something truly horrible. I see her only as a victim, and in this case I don’t think it is fair to say that she brought her fate on herself. IMO, I can’t see how Dalinar’s actions at the Rift are justifiable, even from an Alethi point of view. And it seems that aside from some other very ruthless people, many Alethi are equally horrified (e.g. Kadash).
Similarly Re Navani, I don’t think you can judge a mother by how her kids turned out. I can think of many real world mothers who gave everything they had to their children, and despite that those children made poor choices or had difficult personalities. At some point, people are just accountable to themselves for who they have become.
Okay, so this has almost nothing to do with today’s post, but this (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/226-words-of-radiance-release-party/#e5606) about Hoid is really interesting to me.
Do we know what magic system this regrowth of the soul is from?
#69. Evelina:. Us real humans tend to be less consistent in our weak points. They are still there, but often found hiding. With Dalinar, because we hear his thoughts, there is no hiding. Everything lies there, exposed for all to see. We also have a front row seat as he changes. We bear his pain, as his memories come screaming back. We were in agreement for a while, but there was likely no way that she could understand Alethi culture without being willing to change her own personality deep down. Somewhere I read about Sunmaker’s outward reach to Azir, and him killing off so many of the population. We are not told how many of his fellow countrymen he killed to get there. Keep in mind that everyone of the High Princes of Alethkar can claim Sunmaker as an ancestor. The setting for Stormlight is using a medieval European model, not one for 2018 America. Its model of small Princedoms, could be thirteenth century Germany or Italy. Neither one became united as a country until the late Nineteenth Century. Until then, each independent kingdom warred with it’s neighbors over the centuries. As far as ignoring a child, who was not martial in nature, that was typical in places like Prussia Germany. For some of us, watching Dalinar grow into the bondsmith is interesting and a worthwhile read. You are trying to place twenty first Century standards on a Medieval environment.
Note: most regular folk don’t seem able to see the Trill. Seeing it likely has to do with whether you have investiture in you. Without seeing it, all she would sense would be a dark cloudy area of the battle field, where there was more action.
74 – I agree with you; I like Dalinar as a character, love the man he is now, and really enjoy his relationship with the Stormfather and seeing Dalinar progress. I was trying to express that I am not as anti-Dalinar as many people are but that I do find his past scenes painful to read (and I think they are intended to be that way, since as many people have pointed out all of our Radiants are broken). I’m sorry if I came off too strongly anti-Dalinar in my defense of Evi! I found Evi to be one of the more powerful non-viewpoint characters we have seen and was sad knowing all along that she would die.
As far as imposing modern morals on their society – guilty as charged! I have 2 young children myself and am thankful every day that I live in a time when men are more involved in parenting since my husband is a fabulous father. It would be so sad for him to have missed out on that side of himself in past times. My personal situation definitely clouds my judgement there. Thank you for the historical information; that does add some background I didn’t have.
#75. Evelina: You are correct, I misjudged you. :). Thank for clearing that up. I am a ton older than you. I only had one daughter, I had a miscarriage at twenty weeks with her sister. My daughter will be forty in June. When I was raising her mostly, I was a single mom, working full time, attending college at night. We made it, but it was tough. My ex and I still get along, he comes every Friday to take me grocery shopping. I left the big city suburbs for a small town. My in laws helped a ton with free babysitting and other stuff. I earned an associate degree in accounting, and the kid graduated from high school and entered community college, then settled in working for her mother in law. I worked as an accounting clerk on a military base and eventually was selected to become an accountant intern. They sent my job hundreds of miles away and I didn’t go. I found a job as a government contractor making good money. I retired, which is why I can spend a lot of time reading and rereading Sanderson. What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.
So, no wonderful father in my relationship. He was good to take her to a movie or dinner, but not there when she had nightmares from the movies he chose to see. Not there when she was sick or needed help with homework. Not there to wash her clothes or make certain that she ate healthy. Not there for ballet or scouts or to meet her friends or her teachers. All of that fell on me. He was also not there when I took her to Ireland for a week or London for five days as a graduation gift for both of us.
#70. Procreator: I totally agree. It is a shame that authors tend to disagree. They raise a man nice and high, only to tear him down again. His age is what they will use to tear him down in the back half.
#71 Carl: excellent post, full of examples, of our flawed characters. It is definitely not a perfect world. And yet for all his fussing, Stormfather did not raise the roof for the Bondsmith Dalinar pulling him out as a silvery sword to run the Oathgate. Somewhere deep he must have seen that Dalinar needed to be away from there. It was not healthy for him to stay. Imagine if he had completely collapsed there, would Odium have been there to TAKE AWAY THE PAIN?
@73, flamespren:
Mr. Sanderson has very consciously refused to reveal Hoid’s full backstory. He has said that we have to wait for the upcoming book Dragonsteel (IIRC), which won’t be written until after the Stormlight Archive and Mistborn Era 3 books are written, or (in all likelihood) I am quite dead. Figure at least 20 years, more likely 30. Of course, BWS is only 10 years or so younger than me–at this point he would have to live to be 90 or so to finish all the projected Cosmere books. There are hints in the unpublished Liar of Partinel, which you can get from his web site, or could in the past.
There have been many who have thought about how or why the parshendi bought szeth. Some have speculated that cultivation is playing the long game and has been manipulating things for a long time. #64 raised a point that since the death of dalinar’s brother he has been a better man. I have vacillated between Nale and cultivation as to spoke to the parshendi. With #64’s cogent thought on dalinar I definitely can see cultivation manipulating the death of gavilar to cause dalinar to straighten up and thus be able to resist odium.
Hello Everyone! I seldom post, but I do love reading these articles, as well as all the commentary.
Anyone else think Odium influenced Gavilar? Odium could have infiltrated Gavilar’s visions the way he did with Dalinar without the Stormfather knowing or, perhaps, remembering. It has been established that the Stormfather is not the best historian. Odium could have been the source of Gavilar’s information about the dark gem stones. Surely, the very idea of bringing back the old gods and starting a desolation in order to unite Roshar came from Odium, himself. It just doesn’t feel like something Cultivation would do, long game or no. It makes sense, in this case, that Cultivation would step in and influence the Listeners to remove Gavilar, as he would have become a corrupted Bondsmith. Playing the long game, Cultivation knew that stopping Gavilar would merely postpone the next desolation. So she nudged Dalinar to visit her in the hope that, given time, all his pain would make him stronger. Strong enough to resist Odium.
On Dalinar: in the present of the books, you can see hints of the ruthless man he used to be constrained by his discipline, his regrets, and his adherence to the Codes. In the flashbacks, you (or at least I) can see hints of the good man he is: how he’s pretty eglatarian for an Alethi lighteyes; his leadership skills; his love and commitment for his family; and, a certain layer of basic humanity. The most prominent of these, I think, is when he spares the family of the lord of Ralthas (spelling?). Yeah, it’s a pretty low bar to clear, NOT killing a weeping woman and a kid, but everyone else in the army up to Gavilar expects him to have done it with no problem that couldn’t be solved by a few nights of drinking and gloating over his new Shardblade. It might have been a distasteful business to them, but Gavilar and Sadeas are fine with letting Dalinar perform the most distastful deeds. Even Dalinar seems fine with it, most of the time. But on this occasion, he doesn’t. He’s moved to pity.
I think that this Dalinar–the man he always had the potential to become–is the one Evi loves and tries to encourage. When they are describing the lead-up to Evi’s death, there’s a phrase that jumped out at me: “with uncharacteristic determination.” It’s from Dalinar’s POV, and I could only shake my head at him–everything in this woman’s life has been backed with determination! She was forced by some circumstance to flee to Alethkar and offer herself up into an arranged marriage, and she tries everything she can to bond with her husband even though she’s confused and frightened by him and his culture. She even works hard on adapting the safehand thing! (Out of curiosity, I once tried to go about my day with my left hand gloved and using it as little as possible, and it’s damned difficult even with a latex glove. So full respect to Evi for accomplishing that.) She splits her time between the warcamps and the city so that her family has an opportunity to be a real family, and she seems to have done all of this without the support of family or even close friends. The Alethi might think of her as soft, but she is very, very strong. In contrast, her brother Toh seems to have left Alethkar as soon as possible, protected by Alethi bodyguards.
In short, I really liked Dalinar’s path from the Blackthorn to the Bondsmith, and I found it very believable. He’s never been all the way good, and he’s never gone all the way bad. He has made terrible mistakes in every role he ever played in life. But he keeps on trying to become better, taking that next step. I always liked him before–there isn’t a character in these books I don’t like, except the ones we’re meant to hate, and I even feel some creeping sympathy for them–but this is the book where I came to love him as much as Kaladin and Shallan.
#82: Bravo! I couldn’t agree more. Dalinar is certainly at the top of my list of favourite characters. I have to declare an interest—I spent over 35 years in the Army and have a deep sympathy for his reactions to the pressures and motives that he had to cope with. Despite it all, he does his best and when it came to facing down Odium, his triumph had me cheering. He lacked parenting skills, not surprisingly having had to spend so much time away, but his man-management skills are evident throughout the books. He’s what’s known among professionals as “a soldier’s soldier”!
82, sistertotherain:
Personally, I see some positive things about Odium himself. He despises anyone who he perceives as a threat or rival, but he is (as you wrote about Dalinar) totally egalitarian in his way, and consider that we only have his enemies’ side of the story. He may very well actually think of himself as, or even be, Passion rather than Hatred. (Note also that to a Christian like BWS, “Passion” refers to the crucifixion of their savior.) Hoid hates him, but Hoid is (even by his own statement) an unreliable witness. I have to think that was Sanderson hinting to the reader not to take everything Hoid says as author-verified Truth about the story.
@74: Also guilty as charged, and bemusedly unrepentant. My opinions of characters are influenced by how I feel when reading about them, like the readers who dislike Shallan because they find her annoying (I don’t). I sometimes dislike characters for traits or behaviors that are accepted or admired in their cultures, or vice versa. I know it’s important to consider their actions in the context of their setting, but think there’s a difference between claiming that (for example) a character plot-logically should have ‘known better’ than to do something, or should have been punished for something that isn’t a crime in their culture, and saying that I personally disliked something they did due to my own culturally-influenced feelings of right and wrong. I very much believe in redemption, but dislike some redeemable/redeemed/”good” characters and (in other fiction) adore some unredeemed “bad” ones. I believe this is permissible.
I won’t be ranting about Dalinar throughout this Reread, but I thought it was OK to voice my reaction to his backstory at the outset.
82, sistertotherain – You said it much better than I did. I agree with you wholeheartedly.
AlerieCorbray – You are Superwoman! I can barely keep it together with my husband’s help; I have no idea how women (or men) do it alone. Congratulations on your retirement! I am on maternity leave now from my job in accounting and dreading going back to work and losing my precious minutes when the toddler is napping/asleep and the baby lets me put her down and I can come to these forums and interact with adults in a WAY more fun way than work. I will also miss all the snuggles. :)
Dalinar is feared and admired in his own culture. The THRILL maybe affected him more than others because he was in position to use it to greater effect. Wasn’t it Sadeas who actually set up to burn the entire city? Dalinar, even after the betrayal balked at that at first.
#79 Carl: Sanderson is younger than you think. I recently read that he was 42 years young.
#80 I am still thinking that the voice Whispering in the Parshendi ear was a voidspren from Odium.
#81 Marbelcal: Odium might be influencing him through the Red Thrill unmade to do unwise moves like leaping first into battle with his brother. Why else would a future king do something so foolish?
I haven’t idea where Gavilar got the idea for the dark sphere, but remember he has many working under him, who might have supplied the idea. As far as the Listeners, you do understand that they ran away from the main unit. They no longer wanted to be ruled by their old gods, ancestral spirits, who didn’t stay dead. As far as Cultivation, I doubt that she would operate openly. Remember, she is still grieving for her love Honor that Odium killed. The key to her interaction with Dalinar, by pruning his memory gently, she hoped that when they returned, he would have time to heal before he was confronted with Odium.
#82 Sistertotherain: I also had a recent experience with making do with just one hand. About eighteen months ago, I had surgery for a double tear in my right rotator cuff. Afterwards, I spent six weeks wearing a huge awkward sling, day and night,which permitted little motion out of my right arm. I had to learn to perform many tasks with my left arm and hand that normally would be accomplished using my right side. I was surprised by the end result, although it took nine months of physical therapy and a second surgery before I began to feel normal.
#83. Procreator: Yes, yes. I am very much in Dalinar’s camp and trilled to see him overcome all his pain and misery when he bested Odium. Certainly a scary foe to overcome.
#85 AeronaGreenjoy: if we are lucky, maybe Dalinar will live long enough that he will finally earn redemption in your opinion. Personally, I love the way that We have had so much time getting to know Dalinar from the time he was just leaving boyhood. We still don’t know, what made the brothers decide to push for Gavilar to be king. Now that would be an interesting sidebar. As far as all the blood and gore, not really my thing, but it made him into the manager of men that he is today. Even before the memories started to return, we could tell by the observation of others that there was a difference between the two camps, between Dalinar and Sadeas. The men’s attitude was different. Dalinar had the more controled force with soldiers, who tried hard to do the correct thing. Sadeas’s forces were ripe for Odium’s tempations.
#86. Evelina: Not super woman, but the troubles I went through made me stronger. Yes, it can be lonely, but most of the time it is peaceful. Yes, I had seen him frequently, but I haven’t had to feed or take care of him. But we have just entered into a new stage. His mom died at age 92, so I am now the one reminding him, what are you going to do about Christmas or his birthday? As we are still married, I can carry him on my insurance and that has been a lifesaver. This is from a promise I made to his mom that I would look after him.
@88, AlerieCorbray:
I commented on this to Brandon in person once, and he said that he was only 10 years younger than me. Maybe he was trying to be nice about it?
I can believe he’d need another fifty years to finish. Of course, we’ll still be waiting on the conclusion to ASOIAF as well.
@71, we have hints/implications that Lift feels she abandoned her mother or didn’t take care of her when she needed her and that is why she always runs away. My own theory is that the mother got a serious illness, and Lift scared to see her mother that way ran and wasn’t there for her mother in her last moments. That is why she doesn’t want to grow up/change. Because it would mean having to face what happened to her mother and losing people.
I get the feeling that Moash will end up Odium’s Champion. I’ve been thinking either Kal or Adolin would potentially be Honor’s Champion, and a Kal vs Moash showdown would carry significant weight.
@93. Plum, Yes, that is what I was thinking also. Maybe this is why Odium’s Champion looked familiar to Dalinar, Moash is well on his way to non- redemption…
Snaggletoothdwoman @94. The reason Odium’s Champion looked familiar to Dalinar in the visions that Dalinar saw was because Odium’s champion was a version of Dalinar. At the core, this vision of Dalinar was still Dalinar. This is why Dalinar thought there was something familiar about Odium’s champion. It was Odium’s plan all along to have Dalinar be his champion if he needed one. Odium’s problem was that he never thought Dalinar would keep the pain. Keeping the pain allowed Dalinar not to become Odium’s champion.
The ability of Dalinar to recognize himself in Odium’s champion is similar to how Harry Potter realized that it was not his father who cast the patronous charm in PoA. Rather it was Harry himself time displaced. His father and Harry looked enough alike that Harry did not realize he saw himself.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@95, i will give credit though to those that argue that that was a form of a red herring. Basically Dalinar recognized something in the champion. we see odium name dalinar as the champion. dalinar rejects it. end of story. But what if it wasn’t himself that he recognized. What if we all assume that is the case with the way oathbringer ends? What if the true trick, is now lulled in a false sense of security, assuming the familiarity was dalinar all along, ended up being someone close to him? Would that not be a twist that was foreshadowed? Making you second guess yourself? Not saying its true or not, just I can admit that the possibility is still there, and would be a pretty nice twist if that was the case.
#90.Carl: Go to his web page and look under about Brandon. He was born in December 1975, the same year as my dead son in law. Maybe he was giving you a compliment.
#91 LordVorless: He is writing these big thick books in between a bunch of little books, including a sea of young adult novels, which are not involved with Cosmere. One can get overwhelmed just by watching the flow of books pass through his web site. He got a board reflecting the percentage completed for his current projects. Everything is open and above board. Recently, he had a juvenile novel slotted for him to work last fall. Well, it wasn’t working, so he had something else to drop in that slot. This mixing of the super intense Stormlight stories, in with the much lighter and funnier young adult fiction, and then maybe a new Mistborn tale, keeps his writing fresh and interesting. If you Google Cosmere you can gain where he is in his grand plan. I have also seen it mapped out, which book he intends on writing in what order he intends on writing which volume, but I don’t remember how I reached it. At the moment, he has so many Irons in the fire which he will likely complete on time, that he is the opposite of George Martin. As far as timing, it sounds like he will finish sometime around twenty years from now. Perhaps just over twenty years, but less than twenty-five.
#95. AndrewHB: .Excellent explaination. You made the situation crystal clear.
97, something like this?
#98 LordVorless: Not exactly. A lot has changed in the six years since that article was written. I normally aim for 17th Shard/Coppermind or reddit.com, both of them are frequently updated. As for the site you located, just off my head, there are now two more Storm light “Big” novels, and a third novella called Edgedancer about a clash between Lift and the Herald Nil, that she forced, when she found that he was nearby. It is a very long novella. He also included in the volume called Arcanun Unbounded, a bunch of Mistborn stories, including the secret history of Mistborn. By the way, there are now three books for Mistborn Era two, plus maybe five stories. There is also the Emperor’s Soul, which won a Hugo. Plus a whole bunch more Cosmere stories. Definitely worth getting and reading if only for the comments on the solar system maps and the star maps on the end pages.
#87 Goddessimho: No, nothing original came out of Sadeas. I checked through the four or five chapters involved. Sadeas took whatever Dalinar suggested and repeated it back. He definitely fed Dalinar’s anger and strengthen it. But the whole concept of burning the town, so that no one could ever live there again came from Dalinar. Remember not only had he been lied to, and had extremely heavy rocks dropped on him crushing his armor. The elite unit with him, seemed to have been killed, and Dalinar was badly wounded. Yet he killed all of the enemy waiting to attack anyone who lived and then walked back to meet his rest of his Army and Sadeas’s forces. He did not participate in the initial arrow attack of the defenders. He only joined, when they fired what was a hidden hole for the prince twenty some years ago. Previously he had asked that his wife be taken to her tent before anything started on the actual attack. She snuck out from there without anyone’s knowledge.
#97-99, you mean his State of Sanderson posts, like the latest one here?
https://brandonsanderson.com/state-of-the-sanderson-2017/
Well, I admit I was not in the Dalinar camp, if only because it seemed too obvious, and I thought that Jasnah was a reach.
My theory was the in-book Oathbringer was written by Oathbringer itself, or the re-awakend spren that is Oathbringer. Not only to tell Dalinar and his/her shared story, but also as a path to having re-awakened blades.
Sounded good at the time, but maybe the simplest answer is the best.
#101 Celebrinnen:. Exactly. I get dizzy just reading everything that he is involved. And I note, almost all the listings involve what Sanderson is writing. My original reply was to LordVorless in #91, who thought Sanderson might be filling time, kind of like GRRM for ASOIAF. Now, I’ve been a Martin Fan, since 2010, and I currently hang my hat in Tower of the Hand. So, I have some clue what is happening. He is busy republishing old stuff in fancy covers, getting excited about his theater, and the long running Wild Card series. Especially, he is currently getting super involved in Scifi’s production of his 1985 novella Nightflyer. All of that doesn’t include the one of five possible Game of Thrones universe new series, which are being prepared for HBO for possible showing after Game of Thrones ends sometime in 2019. Notice, none of these thing mentioned have anything to do with finishing The Winds of War. We have seen almost no extracts in the seven years he has been working on book six , and he is still promising a book seven to end the series. This is not the same author plowing away to please his fans. Hollywood is calling and he is in second heaven. If you follow the link that Celebrinnen supplied, you will see that Sanderson is a completely different kind of author. Sanderson is loyal to his fans and attempting to do his best. He has even explained why he mixes his writing, rather than writing nothing more than Stormlight. I am actually caught up on my Cosmere reading. Are you?
All of the above make my decision simple. I have switched my loyalty over to an author, who is supplying me great and varried reading, and who really cares about his readers. I love that everything is open and above board. It is Brandon Sanderson for me.
103, oh no, I think I may have mislead you, what I think is more that Sanderson might be capable of producing 50 years worth of material. Or new material for fifty years. Or maybe that he’d be capable of going “But wait, there’s more!” for a bit longer. Sanderson? I can believe in him.
GRRM was mentioned in contrast…I can’t believe he’ll write another word.
#104 LordVorless: .I believe what we will see out of George are more of those stupid histories and tv scripts for Nightflyers and whichever program his team decide to preach to HBO. My best guess is Sons of the Dragon.
As far as Sanderson, I don’t think that is fifty years worth, more like twenty to twenty-five years. That young man is a Dynamo and very determined.
Heh, I’m sure he’ll think of something else. Sanderson seems to have some deep creative reservoirs, I can’t say I’ll mind if he never runs out.
Admittedly, I still suspect he’s actually 3 or 4 different guys each from a parallel universe all collaborating together.
#106: LOL!!!
#106, I’d put my money rather on aspects! :D
We seem to have drifted pretty far away from Chapter One.
My reaction is that Sanderson is absurdly hard-working, but for whatever reason is less focused than would be convenient for me personally. He keeps doing what I (as a person who doesn’t read YA or tie-in books or superhero prose) think of as “side projects” (when I’m cheerful) or “annoying distractions” (when I’m impatient) instead of the books, I, personally, want to read.
I’m not quite egotistical enough to think that he needs to write for an audience consisting of just me, but I think I’m still entitled to wish that he was finishing Cosmere stuff instead of writing entire other series I don’t want and won’t read in between each book of the Stormlight Archive.
@carl
Sanderson states that switching between series and settings in his writing keeps him fresh. What good, if he only wrote Stormlight books but as a consequence suffered the same amount of “writer’s block” or other distractions as other authors?
#109. Carl: okay, just for you. Chapter 1. On page 32, Here we have Dalinar insisting that he stay to the final end of the vision. He wants to feel the destruction crashing around him. In a golden light, he sees the enemy’s champion in black shardplate and nine shadows around him. As the vision shatters, he hears – .”Unite them. Quickly. ”
Where did that second part of the vision come from? Was it from Odium? That seems logical. I don’t remember if anyone has talked about Honor predicting the future. Could he have done that? And where did the call to Unite them, quickly, come from . He has heard these calls before. Sometimes he has asked Stormfather if it is him. His spren has said no, and yet Stormfather has used some of the same words, at the end of Words of Radiance, he told Dalinar that he was too slow. He had used a high storm to clear away the evidence of the battle. But if it were him, would he deny what he said? Or Is it Odium? At first, he entered a vision looking a little like Honor to confuse Dalinar. It is definitely a puzzle.
There is some meta-supernatural force communicating with Dalinar that is beyond even Vessels of the Shards of Adonalsium. That warm light that he sees and feels, which even the Stormfather is not aware of, and which sends him that vision Stormfather disclaimed. I suspect it’s the one saying “Unite them.”
I haven’t been able to comment as much as I would like. I’ll admit I haven’t had enough time for it, lately, much to my personal regret, but the re-read is to last so long, the rush will eventually die out and I’ll have more time.
So very interesting comments have been said on Dalinar, but my personal take is I still struggle to feel sympathy for his character. Mind, I love his character but, at the same time, I hate him as a person. It may be as @AlerieCombray is stating, I am too young to truly appreciate Dalinar transformation, I may still be young enough not to believe in people truly, fundamentally, changing. All in all, Dalinar irks me. The narrative is presenting him as such a great man, but his actions aren’t speaking of a great man. Dalinar was a vile individual with no empathy whom, had it been modern days, would have been put into jail for life. He burned an entire town filled with innocent people for no other reason he was out-witted by Tanalan Jr. The fact he became a drunk hearing voices into his head is no where near a harsh enough punishment for what he did: Dalinar got away with something absolutely horrible with little consequences. Sure, he thought it was hard to accept it, fine. Those people were burned alive: they died in horrible suffering just because of Dalinar’s pride. Dalinar’s anguish is no wear near close enough to atone for his crimes. Hence, the fact Dalinar never suffered sufficient consequences for his actions is what prevents me from believing into his “redemption”. He never took ownership of the Rift, his involvement was hidden from everyone: he never even had to carry on the public blame for his actions. Adolin believes Sadeas did it. All of these facts make it very hard for me, as a reader, to feel much sympathy for Dalinar’s character.
And yet, present day Dalinar is not nearly as unlikable as his former self was. Sill, I would have feel more sympathy for him had he been forced to live with the real-life consequences of his actions.
On the matter of Evi, I have found the fandom terribly harsh on her. She seems to me as a young woman being forced to run away from her hometown seeking protection from a warlord, being forced to marry a blood-thirsty brute, but still trying to make best with worst. Dalinar might not have single-handily killed her, but he did order the Rift to be torched, he did decide every single living soul within the city would die, he did make sure Tanalan’s family would be among the first causalities: it seemed karma his wife turned out to be the first one to die. The poor thing, she was merely trying to save the Rift, to prevent an act of pure ignominy: how can I blame her for it? Hence, from my perspective, the only individual to blame is Dalinar,
Of course, other characters have done bad things too, but it seems to me Dalinar’s evil far surpassed that of other characters.
I am sure we will get the opportunity to further discuss those points within the weeks to come.
#113 Gepeto: you have me at a slight disadvantage. Skills that worked smoothly, when I was young don’t work so good any more. There is a citation that I remember, but I can’t find it. Anyway, I guess I will slug along, and if I remembered terrible, someone will correct me.
Remember that High Prince Dalinar, like all the high Princes is a direct descendent of Sunmaker. The bad guy of many a tale of the countries that are not Alethi. He was a conquering war Lord, who united the Alethi and then proceeded to try to Conquer the rest of the world. When Dalinar is attempting to smooth the Azir, they bring up what happened when his ancestor came to call. ( I found it chapter 42) Apparently he managed to kill by various methods something like ten percent of their population. Then he died without never naming an heir. Who knows how many he killed in combining the Alethi. My point being, while to our twenty-First Century eyes, Dalinar’s war dead seems huge, I think next to his great, whatever generations back grandfather’s war dead his is much smaller. And yet, when they described Sunmaker, he is described in Heroic wrapping. For the Alethi, this is the culture of their existence. I saw another citation, but I can’t find it, that the Heralds before leaving Roshar for Braize, they would leave strong skill points on the planet. The only one I remember was that the Alethi were to remain the warfare specialists. They were to constantly practice their skills, so that they would be ready for the next desolation.
One last thing to remember, Dalinar has captured the Red Thrill, so all of the Alethi warriors under Dalinar should be much more reasonable and manageable as soldiers, including their leadership.
#112 Carl: Are you remembering that warm golden light that we normally associated with good, on this world comes from Odium? I guess Honor would be associated with a blue/white light.
Not forgetting per se, no. Discounting.
Remember that at the very end of Oathbringer, Dalinar continues to experience “the other light.”
Remember also that even if it’s the antagonist in this particular book, Odium is part of Adonalsium and not evil per se, any more than Ruin (=change) is. It’s just destructive considered in (or forced into) isolation from the rest of the 16 principles that underlie the Cosmere. Future-rejoined-Adonalsium would contain Odium. (Rayse is evil but that isn’t exactly the same thing.) In this very book, Dalinar reminds us that the Spiritual Realm is timeless–that’s why prophecy works, after all. The entity influencing and inspiring Dalinar, IMO, is not “in” the present in the same sense that, say, the Stormfather (who is a Cognitive Shadow and probably not very much in the Spiritual Realm) is.
#116. Carl:I seem to remember that in a similar discussion, some character said that Odium = void. In other words, voidbringers come from Odium. I think that information came from Stormfather. You say that Odium is not evil, although you believe the holder Rayse is evil. The way you explain it is confusing.
Yes, I remember how several folk held the different shards in the final days of Mistborn. In the end, Harmony as it exists at the end of Era 1, is a combination of both the shards of Ruin and Preservation. As it switched from being to being, the nature of the shards and their behavior altered. I believe that by Harmony grabbing both shards and having the huge reserves found in his Coppermind, only then was the situation able to be resolved.
You say that Odium isn’t evil per se, but it is not that simple. By what the database, the Coppermind figures, the Shard Odium, has killed four other shards by shattering them. He has been able to do it in such a way that almost nothing is left. This leaves his shard still strong, rather than have it kill him as well as happened to Preservation. He has been described as angry and hateful in his attitude. If Rayse were going to alter because of his shard’s influence, it should have already happened. He even found a way to make his prison more enjoyable by torturing the Heralds between desolutions using the spren of the fused, until they were released. In his conversations with Dalinar, you can tell he is planning further destruction, once he is released. He plans to get Cultivation, and all those large pieces of Honor still floating around, like Stormfather and Dalinar.
AlerieCorbray, to clarify my confusing writing: Odium in isolation from the rest of Adonalsium ends up being for all practical purposes evil. Ruin in the situation on Scadrial as of the first Mistborn trilogy looks evil to humans, too. A world without either would be worse, though, and recombined with the rest of the shattered Adonalsium entity you end up with something different in nature–as you say, Harmony is not really just a mixture of Preservation and Ruin.
Remember that if Ruin hadn’t participated, Preservation could not have created Scadrial-humans in the first place. Preservation/Leras was the one who broke his oath. Without Passion, would the creatures of Roshar even be as human-like as they are? (They aren’t Earth-humans, as I keep saying.) Odium-the-concept is needed for a properly-functioning Cosmere. The problem is that it shouldn’t be all of anyone’s character, that it shouldn’t (to use a Scadrial metaphor) be un-alloyed.
Look at its effect on Dalinar. The Blackthorn was a monster precisely because his focused, pure determination and love of The Conflict was not tempered by an admixture of kindness or empathy. Dalinar as of Oathbringer is just as determined and capable, but less-ruthless. In fact, that’s the main difference between him and Taravangian.
As it turns out, there was still more humanity in Dalinar than in Rayse, and he was able (with the help of Cultivation) to change, but Rayse is determined not to change (as Brandon has said) and, as I’ve written about before, the one unforgivable sin in the SA is refusing to improve.
#118 Carl: So, we are not that far off from each other in our opinions. The only issue that I see, is I don’t believe that the original Dalinar was completely gone. I see him almost as a split personality. He bears two faces. The horrible man, when he is fighting totally hooked on the red thrill. Where it overcomes – pain, pleasure, loyalty, and happiness. Everything else becomes unimportant, only the thrill matters. However, we have several examples, where he is able to break the trance and leave the trill’s influence. But still, he feels a lingering mourning of what could have been. There must be something tangible inside the man, that makes people like him. What made that Archer Teleb, who could let off a three hundred yard shot into a chosen target, turn into a high officer and a very much beloved friend? He is the main example given of turning the enemy, but from what Sadeas says, this was a frequent tale. We have seen two of our characters, turned as well as they gained respect for the man. Something made his soldiers want to do better for General Dalinar. What made Kaladin and Szeth decide that this becomes their honor code.
Wow, I totally forgot to comment on this one.
I also had been partial to Jasnah writing the opening, until the line about others being smarter than her ;)
I’ve really enjoyed reading the different takes on Dalinar and Evil, etc. But for now I’ll just continue to watch. I do love a good redemption arc, so in that sense, I really like Dalinar’s story, but I definitely understand the difficulties with Dalinar as a *person*. But at least we have the benefit of being in Dalinar’s head so we know he’s making a good faith effort. In real life…we wouldn’t have that.
@Gepeto:
I think you are overlooking two important factors in your judgment of Dalinar:
1) Nothing about the decision to burn Rathalas was rational. It was not part of the plan, it was a reaction to being deceived, having a bunch of his friends killed and almost being killed himself, all while being influenced by a supernatural force fueling his rage. Under those circumstances there are few people indeed who would or could exercise self-restraint.
2) The burning of Rathalas has some similar real life parallels: Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Yet Truman is not considered despicable for having ordered it (at least from my American viewpoint of history). Although Dalinar eventually condemned his own actions, there is no reason to believe anyone else in Alethkar would have. In fact, given the nature of Alethi society, Dalinar was likely applauded. The very admirable part of his character was that he recognized the wrongness of this reality and grew beyond it when most (Sadeas and the other highprinces) weren’t able to.
Also, Evi deserves a ton of credit. She was one of the sticks that helped divert the flood that was Dalinar down a better path even though she was broken in the process.
@121, Xovar:
The analogy to Hiroshima and Nagasaki is remarkably inapt. It’s much more like My Lai–in fact now that I think of it, it’s close enough that BWS might have been inspired by My Lai.
@carl
Where do you see a similarity in the massace at My Lai and the burning of Rathelas? The only thing both have in common is that soldiers kill unarmed civilians, which has happened countless times in human history.
@121 @123 @124 a better comparison might be the firebombing of Dresden (the German city, not the American wizard). Although even that doesn’t hold up great because Dalinar was destroying his enemy’s capitol and Dresden was just s manufacturing hub.
The historical event (among those that I am aware of) that comes closest would probably be the “Magdeburger Hochzeit” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Magdeburg), though even that does not fit completely, because the city of Rethlas was “only” burned, with non of the raping and pillaging beforehand.
“Sixteen is important throughout the Cosmere because of the sixteen Shards of Adonalsium. We’ve seen throughout the first two books how everything on Roshar runs in tens, because ten is significant to Honor. Now we’re going to start seeing things in nines, because nine is Odium’s special number”
Now, I haven’t had time to read all of the comments yet so maybe this has already been asked/answered but could the reason that these numbers are significant to the individual shards is that this is the order in which they were made? Or maybe their “rank/preeminence” as a shard?
I’m trying to remember if there were other significant numbers mentioned for other shards, like in Mistborn. I know that there are sixteen alomantic metals, but were there other numbers that were significant on the planet?
My Lai to the Rift comparison: you’re looking at details of the action, I was looking at motivation. The motivation for the fictional and real events I mentioned was anger by officers and soldiers at betrayal and violation of their code of war. This as opposed to the motivation for the nuclear attacks on Japan, or the firebombings of Dresden and, say, Tokyo: winning a war faster, after victory already basically being assured.
@carl
That seems rather thin to me. There have been countless similar cases where soldiers killed civilians in retribution for guerilla warfare, even if you “only” look at the two world wars you will find dozens.
Re: Navani – Chances are there have been so many comments about her in this chapter. I did not ready any of the comments so pardon me if this has been discussed before.
Dalinar might truly love Navani. She might even be the love of his life. And perhaps, Navani feels the same way.
But, I cannot help but see Navani as an opportunist beginning with her marriage to Gavilar. We know now that though Gavilar was not yet the future king, he was the future High Prince of House Kholin when Dalinar and him met Navani.
Dalinar showed interest to Navani. But he was wishy-washy as Navani had said. If she is this person who always goes for what she wants, she could have gone after Dalinar that time. But, instead, she decided to cultivate Gavilar’s interest and became his wife. Bye.. Bye.. Dalinar!!!
Navani and Gavilar’s marriage WAS NOT arranged. Gavilar courted Navani. So Navani had a choice. She chose Gavilar because it was “convenient” for her, not because she loves him. She said so herself. She had always been in love with Dalinar. But instead of fighting for that love, she chose the path of least resistance. Though her character is “she goes for what she wants.”
Well, she wanted to be the wife of a High Prince who turned out to be the future Kings. So, she chose well.. And thus, she is Navani, the opportunist.
Sorry.. but I really don’t like Navani. Perhaps I’m just a romantic. I just don’t like it when heroes are being used by their supposed love interest.
As for Dalinar. Oh well, he might be a mighty warrior but a poor excuse for a husband and lover. Maybe he is happier now that he is married to Navani. And he can be a good husband to her.
That said, even with my dubious sympathy for Dalinar, it is hard for me to say that Navani and him deserve each other. Because nobody deserves to be used and be married to an opportunist.
I’m really sorry if there are fans of Navani here. I just cannot seem to like her.
I wonder if both interpretations can be true – we still don’t know a lot about Navani’s motivations back then, so it’s possible she did make a political match. But perhaps she ended up regretting that and so now that’s why she’s so committed to just getting what she wants. That said, I like Navani so I don’t want her to turn out to have some ulterior motive this whole time!
I do wonder what (assuming she did always love him) she saw in him to start with…perhaps, like Evi, she saw the glimmer of the man he could end up being.
Regarding the comments that Evi was not supportive of Dalinar… My take on it is that she was the only person who supported the real Dalinar, the man he could become. She could see beyond the Thrill addicted war lord, and tried to encourage him to transform into his better self. She seems like a very gentle soul who can see deeply into people, and I think she could see the the true Dalinar when no one else could, the man who would trade his shardblade to save the lives of slaves, or who would face down an evil God with nothing but a book in his hands. I think she would be proud of him if she could see how hard he has worked to change for the better, and I feel really sad about the way she died.
#132 @artemis – I agree with you. It is just so sad that it was Evi’s death that was the turning point for Dalinar.
It takes courage, and is his best attempt at obedience to the command to
“Unite them.”
Silly me, thinking ‘them’= knights.. nice work Sanderson!
There are two things I want to point out.
1: Maybe it’s me but it seems like the thrill is a metaphor for addiction. Dalinar was just as addicted to the thrill as he was addicted to alcohol. Speaking of Addiction there is a reason that Teft’s firemoss addiction ALSO comes up in the same book that deals with Dalinar’s past.
2: There is a part of me that wonder if having crossed the Moral-Event Horizon (To use TVTopes terminology), and regretting it of course, is a requirement for becoming a Bondsmith. This is mostly speculation. But I would like to point out ONE THING that MIGHT back it up. The fact that the Bondsmiths have no powers that can be used for destruction. They don’t even get shardblades. Also I would find it poetic, that in order to lead a group of broken people, you would have to be among the most broken of them.
@135, BenW: “The fact that the Bondsmiths have no powers that can be used for destruction. They don’t even get shardblades.”
What makes you think Bondsmiths in general don’t have Shardblades? All we know is that the Stormfather refuses to be a Shardblade for Dalinar. As far as I recall, we have no idea whether the Nightwatcher or the Sibling would do it. Also, Dalinar actually forces the Stormfather into a Blade-like shape in this very novel.
“Also I would find it poetic, that in order to lead a group of broken people, you would have to be among the most broken of them.” Maybe, but WoB says that not all Radiants are “broken”. It’s the most common way to have an “open” soul for bonding but not required. Again, in this very novel he makes a point of having Lopen be unbroken but still a Knight Radiant.
@carl I didn’t know about that WOB. Thank you.
The uncut stone being “awakenable” and cut stone otherwise reminds me of Treason by Orson Scott Card.
The Unmade. His minions, ancient spren.” Dalinar knew them from legend only. Terrible spren who twisted the minds of men.
Oh Dalinar…
And an unpopular opinion of mine (yay): I hate the Navani-Dalinar thing. Navani is just so … fake.
Huh.To me Navani is the most genuine of the major characters in many ways. She’s wrong sometimes but when was she deceptive?
I aint got time in my life to read all those comments. I’m just getting around to rereading oathbringer! Sorry if I repeat anything.
the weapons that bleed black smoke (like what Szeth has) are mentioned as being more powerful than any other shard. They could be dawnshards? Also, I’d like to clear up something i keep seeing. Kaladin is NOT a teenager. He specifically thinks about how he ‘passed his 20th weeping during his time as a bridgman’ in words of radiance
#140: I don’t want to spoil anything, but Szeth’s current weapon is … not making its first appearance in the Stormlight Archive. Some of us have met it before.
If you want me (or any of the others) to spoil it, say so.
This is aside from the fact that it is an unconcealed “Brandon’s take on Stormbringer.”